"Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29 - Page 7

Jim_K · 07-26-2008, 11:38 AM

Nope I'm not taking the bait RobertR.....Let's stay on subject now, I know it's difficult for you.

What are your thoughts given that two experts who've actually viewed and weighed in on Dark City have pretty much negated your and others opinions (yeah I just read that AVS thread again) condemning this transfer based on screengrabs?

Are you still claiming there's "missing detail" from Dark City?

Again for your benefit.........were talking Dark City and the legitimacy of relying on screengrabs for evidence of loss of detail.

Robert Harris · 07-26-2008, 11:42 AM

To be clear, I'm not stating that there may not be missing detail on Dark City.

There has definitely been image manipulation.

What I am stating is that if there is, the film has not been plasticized, and nothing horrific has occurred.

RAH

Jim_K · 07-26-2008, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

To be clear, I'm not stating that there may not be missing detail on Dark City.

There has definitely been image manipulation.

What I am stating is that if there is, the film has not been plasticized, and nothing horrific has occurred.

RAH

Fair enough.

For the record my issue is that there's a certain group of internet posters that rely solely on screengrabs, make assumptions without viewing the disc, then the mis-information just escalates and spirals out of control i.e. Dark City which quite a few people here (and more-so at AVS) were condemning as total garbage without anyone having seen the disc.

Robert George · 07-26-2008, 02:30 PM

On the topic of "missing detail", missing from what? Blu-ray is capable of a maximum of 1080 X 1920 pixel resolution. Let's just call it 2K on a good day. So, a 2k digital copy of a film shot on 35mm is the topic of this post (at the risk of being off topic

).

A Blu-ray disc, any Blu-ray disc, is missing resolution from what? The original negative? Undoutedly.

A first gen IP or IN? Certainly.

On more modern technology, a digital intermediate (DI)? I'm sure.

A first run, premium film print on well maintained equipment with a good lens and perfect focus? Yep.

A D-Cinema digital projection? Ummm, that's 1080 X 2048, so I'd call that a toss-up for resolution (D-Cinema beats the crap out of Blu-ray in other aspects though).

The average high-speed polyester 35mm dupe at the average chain cineplex? Not to my eyes.

To those that claim Blu-ray is losing resolution of the original film, in almost all cases, this is indeed true, no matter how good the Blu-ray transfer is. Blu-ray is at best 2K and film is, excepting for the end of the film chain (which is all the vast majority of people actually get to see), always better than 2K.

Before anyone (RobertR) pipes up with, "yeah, but some of these transfers are losing resolution that even Blu-ray should be showing", yeah, that's true. It's a shame, but it's true.

Here's the facts of life (God, I hate this part). There is no Santa Claus, there is no Easter Bunny, and film studios are really just a business that are run like a business. In a successful business, one must weigh the return on any expenditure. Blu-ray isn't much return on a new film transfer of a marginal catalog title, or even a fairly major catalog title in the current market. Expecting studios to go back and re-transfer their entire catalog for every Blu-ray release is simply pie in the sky. It won't happen.

If it makes you feel better to piss and moan about every Blu-ray disc that comes out that does not meet some arbitrary standard that someone has decided it should, by all means, that is what the Internet is for. Knock yourself out. Personally, I am a "glass is half full" kind of guy. I prefer to leave the studios to their business (they aren't going to pay me any attention anyway) and hope that the people that do work for studios that do care about quality presentation of their films (yes, there are people like that) will get their way often enough to make me happy at least most of the time.

As I said already, Dark City on Blu-ray is one that is right enough to make me happy.

Dave H · 07-26-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert George

Here's the facts of life (God, I hate this part). There is no Santa Clause, there is no Easter Bunny, and film studios are really just a business that are run like a business. In a successful business, one must weigh the return on any expenditure. Blu-ray isn't much return on a new film transfer of a marginal catalog title, or even a fairly major catalog title in the current market. Expecting studios to go back and re-transfer their entire catalog for every Blu-ray release is simply pie in the sky. It won't happen.

A good point indeed.

I also think - as part of the business model with ALL previous home video formats - the studios will eventually need to double dip or re-sell you the same title...especially as the market grows. Only then will we maybe see new masters being done for at least certain catalog titles. I mean how many times did we see this with DVD alone?

Robert Crawford · 07-26-2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim_K

Fair enough.

For the record my issue is that there's a certain group of internet posters that rely solely on screengrabs, make assumptions without viewing the disc, then the mis-information just escalates and spirals out of control i.e. Dark City which quite a few people here (and more-so at AVS) were condemning as total garbage without anyone having seen the disc.

Do as I do which is pay them little attention. It works fine for me.

Crawdaddy

Mike_Richardson · 07-26-2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim_K

For the record my issue is that there's a certain group of internet posters that rely solely on screengrabs, make assumptions without viewing the disc, then the mis-information just escalates and spirals out of control i.e. Dark City which quite a few people here (and more-so at AVS) were condemning as total garbage without anyone having seen the disc.

That's exactly my issue. I have the DARK CITY Blu-Ray and completely agree with Robert George. I'm thrilled to watch it in HD, and the talk about how "DNR-d" the transfer is to the point where some people have been canceling their orders...frankly it's doing a disservice to the truly bad transfers (the few that are out there) that are out there on BD. DARK CITY looks just fine.

RobertR · 07-26-2008, 03:58 PM

Quote:

If it makes you feel better to piss and moan about every Blu-ray disc that comes out that does not meet some arbitrary standard that someone has decided it should, by all means, that is what the Internet is for. Knock yourself out. Personally, I am a "glass is half full" kind of guy. I prefer to leave the studios to their business (they aren't going to pay me any attention anyway) and hope that the people that do work for studios that do care about quality presentation of their films (yes, there are people like that) will get their way often enough to make me happy at least most of the time.

I saw a lot of "pissing and moaning" (as you like to characterize all such concerns) about the original Fifth Element release, and Sony fixed it (they even offered to exchange it). So did Disney when people "pissed and moaned" about the bad framing in Pirates of the Caribbean. So expressing concerns about studios not achieving the quality they're perfectly capable of achieving is hardly useless (as you imply). "Business is business" is NO excuse for "silently" (ie not "pissing and moaning") accepting mediocrity. If you don't understand that, take a look at what happened to American automakers in the past 35 years.

Michael Reuben · 07-26-2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertR

I saw a lot of "pissing and moaning" (as you like to characterize all such concerns) about the original Fifth Element release, and Sony fixed it (they even offered to exchange it). So did Disney when people "pissed and moaned" about the bad framing in Pirates of the Caribbean. So expressing concerns about studios not achieving the quality they're perfectly capable of achieving is hardly useless (as you imply). "Business is business" is NO excuse for "silently" (ie not "pissing and moaning") accepting mediocrity.

As sympathetic as I am to this argument, let me suggest that this is not a good occasion to be making it.

The problem is simple: In this instance, most of the people making the biggest fuss haven't yet seen the actual disc. Most of the people who have don't agree that what's being offered qualifies as "mediocrity" -- and one of those people is RAH, who has never been shy about speaking up when the studios provide less than they're capable of.

Let's save the ammo for a disc that, by general consensus, genuinely deserves it.

M.

RobertR · 07-26-2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Let's save the ammo for a disc that, by general consensus, genuinely deserves it.

I'm fine with that, Michael. I was making a general rebuttal to what Obi was saying.