"Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29 - Page 10

Jim_K · 07-31-2008, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Mack
Jim, since you keep mentioning the "infamous" shot that I posted, actually that shot was not zoomed 400%, not zoomed at all, simply cropped. Are you aware of this? You've mentioned it Several times. You don't need to purposefully exaggerate to try and make a point.

I'm not disputing what you say at all about the disc, and maybe the whole issue is a bit blown out of proportion but you should keep your facts straight if you're going to comment on what other member's post. To some EE and DNR really is no big deal and huzzah. But to others it is.

Dave, you don't need to take any of this personally, which it seems you're doing. I'm critiquing the screengrabs not the person (you) who posted it. I don't believe in using screengrabs as the "smoking gun" and the final say in judging PQ. Others may disagree, thats fine. Again I can honestly say during that scene in full motion on a 1080P 70" screen I had a hard time finding the force field effect, it was there but so slight I doubt I would have noticed it if I hadn't purposely looked for it.

It looked nowhere near as accentuated as that screengrab still shot when played in full motion.

Will it look any more pronounced on a larger 1080P display? It might.

As for exaggerating to make a point well seems most everyone is guilty of that, like for example - implying EE and DNR are no big deal to me. Nice dig, huzzah. For the record, it's a big deal if it takes me out of the movie, if I have to pause the screen to find it........ then, well.................

For the record EE shouldn't be applied to any BD but it is. However I can't condemn a disc with slight EE that I barely notice.

Tolerance to DNR will vary I guess. DC wasn't ruined with excessive DNR (like some other titles) and waxy is not the term I'd use but if anyone has a zero DNR tolerance level......well........rental would be the best option.

Michel Hafner, pre-judging PQ based on still screengrabs is against my philosophy, plain and simple. Debating the pros and cons would get us nowhere. Let's just agree to disagree.

Go watch the disc and judge it in full motion, without pausing the screen.

Your assessment may not match mine but at least you gave it a fair shot, right?

Paul_Scott · 07-31-2008, 08:54 AM

Cropped screengrabs are fine, but I hope you guys realize that to judge them accurately you need to estimate the full frame width (from a cropped grab) and then adjust your viewing distance accordingly. having your face a foot away from the screen is just not proper viewing distance.
I was able to sample parts of the disc last night (it was a Warner pre-order so I didn't want to go thru the hassle of trying to cancel it with them. It was also only $16 with tax and shipping) I never saw the film theatrically so my estimations are compromised to begin with. To me, it looked of a similar nature to Pan's Labryinth. Had I not seen screengrabs of more faithful representations of that, I probably would have given it a pass. As it is it is still 'watchable' as is DC - but as Dave Mack has pointed out(somewhere) for a format that engaged in such a hard sell for the longest time, with over the top hyperbole- merely being watchable or 'nicer' than the DVD is damning. What's here is pretty, but not laudable.
It also seems clear that a release that offers filtered, safe from pesky grain, visuals along with touting a bonus disc featuring a copy you can port to a handheld digital device, is NOT a release being created for the serious a/v-phile. It is a release designed to appeal to the vast majority of non-serious PS3 users, who will be jacked into their ipods when they aren't playing games. Can't we just call a spade a spade here? I'm not suprised more and more releases have a filtered look. Look at the audience the studios are chasing with their Bd releases* and it seems that a filtered image like the one here is more than adequete.

*As a 45-50 year old POTA fan, is the 'escape from the Fobidden Zone game' really a strong selling point for me on that release? Blu-ray seems to be the A/V enthusiasts format only by default, not design.

Michael Reuben · 07-31-2008, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlo Medina

What everyone needs to remember is that this transfer is probably over a year old. I remember discussions of this cut being finished and prepped for release from about that long ago, if not longer. I believe Ebert recorded his commentary before his latest surgery, and he's been gone a while due to that.

It's two years, Carlo, and kudos to you for being the first to notice this.

Indeed, if one plays the "Introduction by Alex Proyas" to the director's cut, there's Ebert talking enthusiastically on camera about the film. He hasn't been able to talk for two years now.

Whatever one's personal assessment of this disc, its preparation clearly dates from the early era of HDM. The production pipeline being what it is, we are simply not going to see the impact of the many concerns expressed about the use of DNR until some time in the future -- possibly even next year.

Does that mean those concerns should no longer be expressed? Absolutely not. But it also doesn't mean that any new problematic title that appears should be an occasion for outrage that our concerns are being ignored.

As for the Dark City disc itself, I haven't finished watching it; so I'm going to do something novel and wait until I have before opining on its quality.

M.

Edwin-S · 07-31-2008, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul_Scott

As it is it is still 'watchable' as is DC - but as Dave Mack has pointed out(somewhere) for a format that engaged in such a hard sell for the longest time, with over the top hyperbole- merely being watchable or 'nicer' than the DVD is damning. What's here is pretty, but not laudable.
It also seems clear that a release that offers filtered, safe from pesky grain, visuals along with touting a bonus disc featuring a copy you can port to a handheld digital device, is NOT a release being created for the serious a/v-phile. It is a release designed to appeal to the vast majority of non-serious PS3 users, who will be jacked into their ipods when they aren't playing games. Can't we just call a spade a spade here? I'm not suprised more and more releases have a filtered look. Look at the audience the studios are chasing with their Bd releases* and it seems that a filtered image like the one here is more than ade

*As a 45-50 year old POTA fan, is the 'escape from the Fobidden Zone game' really a strong selling point for me on that release? Blu-ray seems to be the A/V enthusiasts format only by default, not design.

Here we go again. More unprovable assumptions about who the studios are chasing as an audience, along with yet another tired attack against the format instead of where the blame truly belongs: the studios.

What the format is capable of and how that capabability is taken advantage of are two different things. The format can deliver everything that A/V enthusiasts want, but if the studios choose not to deliver those wants then who is to blame? The format? I don't think so.

Do you think that these issues would have gone away if HD DVD had won the day? Well I think not. We would still be here complaining about bad transfers, DNR, EE and lack of lossless tracks on releases, because the business practices and decisions of the studios are independent of the format.

I don't care if people complain about the quality of the films on BD, but at least put the blame where it belongs: on the practices of the studios, not on the format. We would be in exactly the same boat if HD DVD had won the day.

Paul Arnette · 07-31-2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul_Scott

To me, it looked of a similar nature to Pan's Labyrinth.

I think this assessment is spot-on. That was the release I thought of immediately while watching it. I have yet to take a look at either 'Gangs of New York', 'The Longest Day', or 'Patton', but I suspect that my DNR 'breaking point', given my screen size and viewing distance lies, somewhere in between and probably nearer the Dark City/Pan's Labyrinth end of the spectrum.

Paul_Scott · 07-31-2008, 01:06 PM

Edwin, you may want to keep dragging a dead and buried alternative format into the discussion, but I don't. There are only two formats now DVD and Bd.And the way the studios choose to consistently exploit the format, becomes what the format IS much moreso than dormant, unrealized potential.
What serious A/V-phile, who is willing to pay a premium for HD resolution because he has invested in the gear that will most appreciate it, and regularly takes the time to calibrate that gear, gives a hang about being able to watch the same movie over and over again on a 2" mobile device screen?
On the other hand, how many 15-30 yr old gamers are going to appreciate the added mfg expense of a digital copy? The majority of primary use gamers buy the Bd not because they desire the highest source fidelity, but because it is the 'Abercrombie & Fitch' status format compared DVDs 'Faded Glory'. To this group filtering is just fine because it hews closer to their limited perceptions of what HD is. I make that analogy because I actually know people like this- the only people besides me in my sphere who have any HD capability at all. .
There are two masters here and it is clear which one the studios would RATHER serve. When you tie a video format to the coattails of a game console, the 'gaming crowd' becomes the master, NOT the A/V-phile, though they may squeak the loudest on a messageboard.

Ron-P · 07-31-2008, 01:34 PM

I watched this last night and all I have to say, it looked fantastic. A bit soft was all I noticed and that is most likely due to the age of the film. The DTS-MA track was awesome as well. A very well done Blu disc of this film.

Edwin-S · 07-31-2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul_Scott

Edwin, you may want to keep dragging a dead and buried alternative format into the discussion, but I don't. There are only two formats now DVD and Bd.And the way the studios choose to consistently exploit the format, becomes what the format IS much moreso than dormant, unrealized potential.
What serious A/V-phile, who is willing to pay a premium for HD resolution because he has invested in the gear that will most appreciate it, and regularly takes the time to calibrate that gear, gives a hang about being able to watch the same movie over and over again on a 2" mobile device screen?
There are two masters here and it is clear which one the studios would RATHER serve. The A/V-phile is not in the majority here, though they may squeak the loudest on a messageboard.

No, I don't want to keep dragging in a dead and buried alternative format. But, I always get the feeling that there is an unsaid subtext being projected when someone keeps emphasizing BDs alleged failure to deliver what its marketing promised, rather than emphasizing the studios failures to deliver quality transfers on that media.

My point is that, regardless of format, we would be facing exactly the same situation as we face now: transfers with DNR and EE applied, as well as releases without lossless tracks because of bad decision making by the studios.

Also, I disagree with the assumption that studios want to serve any master. They couldn't care less about "masters". Their purpose is to capture as wide a group of consumers as they can. If supplying a digital copy, that can be played on a portable device, sells more BDs and captures another market segment then they are going to do it. Serving a "master" has nothing to do with it: serving their own interest at making a profit has everything to do with it.

Also, I noticed in this post you now emphasize the studios poor exploitation of BD as the culprit for the state of BD, while in your other post you were emphasizing Blu-ray's failure to live up to its marketing hype. Nice switch.

Stephen_J_H · 07-31-2008, 01:49 PM

Paul, I think you misread what Edwin was saying, which is: it makes no difference which format won the war; the studios' releasing practices would still be the same. I find it difficult to believe that digital copy would be any less prevalent if HD DVD had won the war.

The problem with Dark City is the same problem as Pan's Labyrinth: someone @ the studio decided that an all-purpose 1080p master would be more efficient than creating separate masters for HD and SD. The master is two years old and was created before anyone here (or anywhere else, for that matter) started discussing the merits/problems of DNR/EE on HD media. To blame it on the "gamer demo" is a tired and fruitless argument. The blame squarely lies with the studios.