The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction!

Gary Murrell · 12-02-2007, 01:11 AM

I have been meaning to make a post here about this for a long while now, it seems my negative comments on films are not acceptable any longer at my previous long time hang-out.

We have a serious knew problem with the fabulous HD/BD formats that if not corrected will utterly kill the format with film lovers like us, that problem is the regular attempts at moving film grain from these otherwise fine releases.

Film grain is a natural part of the image and is only visible now (versus DVD) due to the higher frequency details and resolution of HD/BD formats. You will notice in my reviews that I always mention whether or not the film I am reviewing has been trashed with noise reduction, this is very important because when NR has been applied to a release we are robbed of all life and detail that is present in films at this high of a resolution.

I have to be blunt and honest here, the only reason this is occuring is to please all these morons that think grain is bad and some fanboy console gamers so they won't complain that everything doesn't look like Shrek!

The worst case example of this horrid practise is Face/Off on HD-DVD, absolutely and utterly hammered with NR, NR is easily spotted by looking for slight smearing and ghosting, here is a long thread on AVS discussing this problem with this release and how in general Paramount has ruined nearly every release so far.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=933107

Some other titles that are totally or partially ruined with NR are:

Complete Jack Ryan set HD

Top Gun HD
Face/Off HD
Black Rain HD
Untouchables (bad!!!) HD
First Blood BD
Italian Job HD
Dawn of the Dead BD
Tremors HD

here is another more complete list in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=937873

a example of NR is this great screenhot, look at Fred Ward's face from Tremors:

http://www.cif-forums.com/png/tremors_1.png

to make matters worse, our old buddy from DVD is back and that is false EE or edge enhancement, this is usually always done to NR'd transfers in a attempt to bring back some detail that is totally smudged away via the NR process, in the end you are left with a nasty image, Face/Off on HD-DVD is a prime example of this tragedy

people need to push studios for better PQ than this crap we are being given, please stop this NR/EE madness, this means you Paramount

-Gary

Harpozep · 12-02-2007, 02:25 AM

True enough there. Sigh.........
The only up side is that the result still looks better than what is broadcast on my Comcast HD cable. Lots of same color critter movement, burnt highlights and edge highlights. Sony LCOS 60" so I have many adjustments and still HD cable typically looks terrible.
I have the Untouchables on HD and have yet to view it. Now I'll look at it with this NR post in mind.

captainjoe · 12-02-2007, 02:29 AM

I agree 100%. This is a major problem that studios need to quit doing. The Last Starfighter is absolutely terrible with DNR. I hope this doesn't become worse with every title utilizing this. There is only one studio that is consistent with not using EE or DNR on new titles and that is Warner. Classy transfer all the way with a few exceptions on some very early releases.

Gary Murrell · 12-02-2007, 03:46 AM

Warner is the best, bar none, always have been in regards from everything to masters to preservation and DVD, HD-DVD etc. they know how to get things done right

Sony is very very good as well, I would rate them second to Warner so far in everything HD wise, just my opinion of course

, their BD50/avc/pcm/truehd releases from the past 6 to 9 months have been astounding

Paramount started out wonderfully also, Tomb Raider is splendid, as is Sahara and Sleepy Hollow, Italian Job has master issues because it looked the same on Showtime HD as it did on the HD/BD releases

that is one thing to consider here, the master houses could be doing this and could be to blame, not the studios

only insiders can give us a idea as to where the blame is

-Gary

Carlo Medina · 12-02-2007, 05:38 AM

Eesh, so it looks like NR is the new EE. Great. I don't own any of the listed titles (as a BD only owner right now there's only a couple listed) but I sure hope they right the ship, no matter which format wins. I had high hopes that this HD format would finally put an end to silly digital "enhancements" that do nothing but detract from the actual picture quality.

**HTF Ads**

Michael Reuben · 12-02-2007, 10:35 AM

DNR isn't a new problem, but it's certainly more obvious with hi-def releases. Even with SD DVD, there were certain releases where you could tell there'd been way too much noise reduction.

One that immediately springs to mind is the Anchor Bay version of Bad Boys (the early Sean Penn film), which was much anticipated because the previous release had been significantly shortened. It was great to see the restored portions, but the entire image looked flat, shiny and artificial -- completely wrong for a prison movie. But someone had obviously tried to clean it up for the video generation.

M.

David_B_K · 12-02-2007, 11:55 AM

I was hoping that after the now famous faux-pas in the Bernstein scene in Warner's SD DVD of Citizen Kane that the studios would have started backing off on DNR. In SD DVD, EE practically nauseates me, but DNR in HD is now starting to scare me.

But, Gary, exactly what are we looking at in the capture from Tremors (a film I don't own and have only seen once)? Is it that Ward's face has no gloss or sheen and little highlights? Did they digitally remove part of his beard stubble? Is it possible he is shaded from the light by Kevin Bacon?

Steve Schaffer · 12-02-2007, 02:40 PM

There are hordes of philistines over at AVS complaining that HD discs don't all look like Discovery HD, perhaps this DNR is in response to them.

JeremyErwin · 12-02-2007, 04:21 PM

Recalling some lectures n signal theory, noise is random, and therefore, resistant to compression. In the early days of DVD, it was a choice between running Noise reduction, and ending up with far more visible artifacts, such as blocky video. Running noise reduction results in a blurry image, so a sharpen filter was used--- resulting in ringing-- edge enhancement.

So, is this done out of habit, or is 50GB still not enough?

JeremyErwin · 12-02-2007, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David_B_K

Is it that Ward's face has no gloss or sheen and little highlights? Did they digitally remove part of his beard stubble? Is it possible he is shaded from the light by Kevin Bacon?

Look at his eyebrows.