"Waiting" on Blu-ray: My first 7.1 uncompressed PCM title!

RAF · 08-01-2007, 07:43 PM

Those of us who returned from HTF/EMA had a copy of "Waiting" in our Blu-ray goody bag. This title was released on Blu-ray on 07/17/07 and I received a pleasant surprise when I got home. I already had the "regular" SD of this guilty (scatological) pleasure of a movie and loved it the first time around. But the back of the box stated something that intrigued me:

Quote:

7.1 PCM uncompressed audio track

What? An actual 7.1 audio source?!? Up until now the only true 7.1 sources I've heard came from my PS3 in game mode (as verified by the incoming display on my Denon 3806 AVR - definitely 7.1 input.) Could this "B" title actually be my first legitimate 7.1 DVD source?

To my pleasant surprise it's just that. The PS3 display confirms that the disc offers a choice of DolbyEX 5.1 at 640Kbps and an uncompressed 7.1 channel PCM audio track that outputs at 6.1Mbps!! And it sounds great - even for a movie where one wouldn't think such a sound track is necessary.

I have questions:

Is this the start of more Blu-ray titles with 7.1 uncompressed PCM tracks? If you have HDMI capability (even 1.1) you are set to go.
Will HD-DVD titles also offer 7.1 PCM uncompressed audio tracks? There's no technological reason why they can't.
When will the information on the Internet catch up with this? Amazon gives you no clue and Lasersedge offers a small "PCM 7.1" tidbit if you look close enough.

To me, this is a big deal. If you have the disc and the audio capability check it out. And can anyone provide me with a list of upcoming PCM 7.1 titles in either HD format?

CRyan · 08-01-2007, 08:21 PM

To me this is also a Very big deal. Funny, this movie is on its way to me from BB online. Now I am excited to see it!

Not only that, but I dont purchase HD movies without a lossless track. This is as important to me as 1080p video.

RAF · 08-02-2007, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRyan

...Not only that, but I dont purchase HD movies without a lossless track. This is as important to me as 1080p video.

I'm glad you feel that way as those are my sentiments exactly. You can do a lot with the video portion of SD DVDs (and my DVDO VP50 does a heck of a job with 480i source material via HDMI scaling it up to 1080p) but there's one thing that electronic wizardry can't even come close to when comparing SD discs to HD discs (either format) - the HD Audio Codecs. To me the "HD" experience involves both video and audio and this is what really separates it from SD counterparts.

We can argue the merits of upscaling video all we want but there is very little argument when one compares audio bitrates in the kbps range with HD audio bitrates in the Mbps range. Yes, DTS at 640kbps is better than what we are used to on SD where it clocks in at about half that (remember all the fuss about how DTS LDs actually sounded better than DTS DVDs? The LDs were carrying a 640kbps DTS bitrate.) Now crank this up to the MEGAbps arena and you really have to have a tin ear not to notice a difference (unless you are limited to the internal speakers on some displays.) Without a doubt, comparing the sound available on most HD discs when compared to SD DVDs is like comparing the sound of SACD or DVD-A to redbook CDs. If you can't hear a difference (assuming a good source) then you are either not using audio equipment capable of producing the sound or you have hearing problems. To me, and obviously to many others, this is not an insignificant part of the whole HD (both formats) disc experience.

In a related matter, I realized that there are several other BR titles out there which offer more than 5.1 sound. The Descent contains uncompressed PCM 6.1 audio as does Weeds - Season 1. And Weeds - Season 2 contains uncompressed PCM 7.1 audio. It looks like the start of a trend. Some of this, of course, is related to what is available at the source.

Generally, I've found that HD-DVD titles have generally held a slight edge over BR where the movie was available in both formats. Paramount was releasing BR titles with 640kps sound while the HD-DVD equivalent title was 1.5Mbps. Same for Warner Bros. (No surprise here). However, with the uncompressed 6.1 and 7.1 PCM audio showing up on some BR titles the playing field is leveling.

Stay tuned....

Adam Barratt · 08-02-2007, 01:53 AM

RAF, I agree that it's great seeing more channels and, although I believe PCM is quite wasteful, it is a better alternative than lossy most of the time (man, there's some interesting discussions to be had there: 16-bit PCM or 24-bit DD+ for example!).

Quote:

Yes, DTS at 640kbps is better than what we are used to on SD where it clocks in at about half that (remember all the fuss about how DTS LDs actually sounded better than DTS DVDs? The LDs were carrying a 640kbps DTS bitrate.)

DTS on DVD was/is either 754 or 1509kbps; 640kbps was only an option for Dolby Digital, but on DVD it was restricted to 448kbps. On LaserDisc DTS was 1235kbps, well short of DTS at its highest on DVD.

To be honest, the audio on DVD never really impressed me. I remember feeling incredibly disappointed when I compared AC3 LaserDiscs to their DVD counterparts. One of the great things about HD DVD and Blu-ray is that they both sound, to my ears, significantly better than anything DVD has had to offer. Hopefully all of the studios will eventually stop using lossy formats and switch to TrueHD or PCM (don't get me started on DTS HD MA).

Adam

Jari K · 08-02-2007, 05:22 AM

So this has 7 discrete channels? Since I believe with some earlier titles from Lionsgate (e.g. "Crank" and "Descent"), the 7.1 is enconded as a "7.1", but has actually 6.1 discrete channels (I hope I got this right?).

**HTF Ads**

Neil Joseph · 08-02-2007, 07:55 AM

As far as I know, Pirates Of The Caribbean: At World's End will also have pcm 5.1...

Quote:

First up today, Disney has officially announced the DVD and Blu-ray Disc release of Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End on 12/4. The DVD will be a 2-disc set (SRP $34.99 - a single disc DVD will also be available for just $29.99) and the Blu-ray will also be a 2-disc set (1 50GB and 1 25GB disc - SRP $35.99). Disc One of the set will include the film itself (1080p AVC video, 7.1 48/24 uncompressed audio on the Blu-ray) along with a blooper reel (and the BD-Java Jolly Roger host on the Blu-ray). Disc Two will include 8 featurettes (Anatomy of a Scene: The Maelstrom, Keith & the Captain, Tale of the Multiple Jacks, Hoist the Colors, Inside the Brethren Court, The Pirate Code: Revealed, The World of Chow Yun Fat and The Pirate Maestro: The Music of Hans Zimmer), along with the 5-part Masters of Design documentary (the Blu-ray will also include the exclusive Enter the Maelstrom BD-Java interactive feature, and all the standard DVD content will be presented in high-definition).

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwoc...40.html#snyder

MarekM · 08-02-2007, 09:13 AM

there are two times mentiond PCM in press release, once as 7.1 and once as 5.1 hmm

it would be super great to have full 7.1 24bit/48 track

Marek

CRyan · 08-02-2007, 09:29 AM

And to even add to my previous comment, I would prefer the lossless track to be PCM after hearing what "mess" Dolby True provided on the 300 Blu Ray.

But, I will continue to rent titles that are encoded in last gen codecs...

RAF · 08-02-2007, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Barratt

...DTS on DVD was/is either 754 or 1509kbps; 640kbps was only an option for Dolby Digital, but on DVD it was restricted to 448kbps. On LaserDisc DTS was 1235kbps, well short of DTS at its highest on DVD.

To be honest, the audio on DVD never really impressed me. I remember feeling incredibly disappointed when I compared AC3 LaserDiscs to their DVD counterparts....
Adam

Thanks for the clarification, Adam. One question. I agree that in the early days of DVD I favored the sound of my AC-3 LDs over their SD counterparts. However, your figures seem to suggest that SD DTS has a higher capability than LD DTS (1509 kbps vs 1235 kbps). Was our favoring of AC-3 LDs due to the fact that at the time (circa 1997) SD DTS was limited to 754 kbps?

And yes, listening to the lossless and uncompressed tracks on HD media (both formats) is truly ear-opening on any decent sound system. It's a shame that a lot of people are limiting their HD experience to HD displays with their built-in speakers. While this will change for the enthusiasts, it's unfortunate that audio takes a back seat to video in mainstream HD discussions. To me, the attraction is the whole package (which is why I bite my tongue when people exclaim, "I don't really see that big a difference between HD and SD DVDs.")