The Digital Bits - "Officially Blu-ray" Soapbox - Page 5

DaViD Boulet · 06-03-2007, 10:07 AM

Ron,

Readers like those at HTF go out of their way to familiarize themselves with technology and make edicated decisions that are well informed with their eyes fully open.

I think when Bill is saying that he "can't recommmend HD DVD" he's not talking about consumers like those at HTF... because we don't *need* his recommendation: we educate ourselves and make up our own minds about what we want to purchase and why... and regardless of what that decision may be, it's informed and reasoned given the level of discussion and awareness an enthusiast has.

I think his comments about "recommending" are really targeted towards average consumers who aren't really tech-savvy who read his site to find guidance in their purchase decisions. For consumers like that, who don't really have all the information to digest their own conclusions, his comments might be helpful.

Even if HD DVD holds on for a good while yet (especially as Fox slows down BD releases while they wait for BD+ or whatever), given the manufacturer and studio support for BD, it's likely to ultimately be the winning format for that reason alone. The vendors don't want dual-formats, so even if HD DVD stayed alive past the point of one "suceeding" format, it would probably start to disappear off the radar of retail shops (though on-line purchase models might not be affected).

In any case, his recommendation is based on a reasoned calculation that ultimately Blu-ray will succeed over HD DVD given all the reasons he shared. In his way, he feels a responsibility to his readership to point their purchase dollars towards the format with the longest staying-power. That's not the kind of position we'd take at a discussion-form like HTF, but for a blogger who's spent many years evangelizing for causes such as DVD, anamorphic-encoding, and improved AV quality/releases, it's not so out-of-bounds.

Quote:

Onto the format war. I think it's really ridiculous. I just purchased an HD-DVD player and I couldn't care less if Blueray ends up winning the war or if neither side wins and both fizzle out. Right now I get to watch my SD discs with the best possible image available and I get to watch a few movies in high definition. And I'll purchase all the HD-DVDs I want as they come out.

Indeed the Toshiba HD players (certainly the A1 that I've seen first-hand) has some of the BEST DVD-upscaling I've ever seen. I paid $200 for my DVD player just for the benefit of good upscaling over HDMI, and the Toshiba's cost increase over my DVD-only player is well worth the upscaling improvement alone. Anyone could justify the purchase of an HD DVD player on the grounds of DVD upscaling and consider the HD-DVD capability an added bonus... and in doing so, even if HD DVD ends up not staying around in the long-haul, nothing to lose! Have your cake and eat it too.

For myself... I'll just wait a year to see if Universal goes Blu...

Jason Roer · 06-03-2007, 10:10 AM

Well said both Ron and Tim!

Though Tim, there really isn't any format war between Mac and PC - MAC IS THE CLEAR WINNER!!!!!!!!!

(god I wish I knew how to make one of those smiley faces that stick their tongues out!)

The love of movies is why I bought my HD-DVD player and why I really could care less about format wars. If Blueray wins, I'll get a Blueray player and still enjoy all the films I bought on HD-DVD with my HD-DVD player. I just want to watch movies in their best possible presentation. And I'm loving my player right now! It's so cool to look through my SD collection and see things in the movies I haven't seen before. King Kong and Star Wars are two stand outs. They look amazing! I just feel so blessed to have one of these machines hooked up in my system. So as Tim said, all this childish banter about bits and codecs seems silly. It's the joy of watching a pristine image that should be bringing us together here.

Cheers,

Jason

nolesrule · 06-03-2007, 10:55 AM

For those of you who may think that MS subsidizing the format war by supporting HD DVD is farfetched, they are already doing this in the software world. A couple years back, they gave millions to a company called SCO to help fund its (baseless) lawsuits against IBM, Novell and other companies in order to slow down the adoption of Linux by companies who were planning to stop uisng UNIX for their servers.

In other words, they gave another company money in order to create FUD in the marketplace to sabotage their competition.

Douglas Monce · 06-03-2007, 11:11 AM

[quote=DaViD Boulet]

Quote:

I think when Bill is saying that he "can't recommmend HD DVD" he's not talking about consumers like those at HTF... because we don't *need* his recommendation: we educate ourselves and make up our own minds about what we want to purchase and why... and regardless of what that decision may be, it's informed and reasoned given the level of discussion and awareness an enthusiast has.

I think his comments about "recommending" are really targeted towards average consumers who aren't really tech-savvy who read his site to find guidance in their purchase decisions. For consumers like that, who don't really have all the information to digest their own conclusions, his comments might be helpful.

I would agree with you if Bill Hunt were saying "Here are the pros and cons of each format, here is the good and the bad...now you decide."

But he isn't. He is saying "Trust me, I know better than you, just take my word for it." That isn't literally what he is saying but that is surely what his endorsement of blu-ray says. It's clear that from now on HD DVD really won't get a fair shake from his web site.

Quote:

Even if HD DVD holds on for a good while yet (especially as Fox slows down BD releases while they wait for BD+ or whatever), given the manufacturer and studio support for BD, it's likely to ultimately be the winning format for that reason alone. The vendors don't want dual-formats, so even if HD DVD stayed alive past the point of one "suceeding" format, it would probably start to disappear off the radar of retail shops (though on-line purchase models might not be affected).

I think the sales numbers show that it is WAY too early to make that kind of leap. The sales are so small that a very minor market change could throw one format or the other way ahead. I made a joke in another thread about MY not buying a copy of the Matrix is the reason it didn't beat Pirates. It was a joke but really not all that far from the truth.

Doug

Cees Alons · 06-03-2007, 11:17 AM

"Those who ignore the history class's lessons are condemned to repeat it in the next semester"

The Floppy Wars (1987 - 2003)

During the fifties of the previous century, a terrible medium war broke loose, between two totally incompatible sound record formats: the 45 rpm vs. 33 rpm records. Both worked on a needle-and-groove principle, but the speed at which they rotated, and even the sheer size of the media was totally different. The struggle was harsh and vicious: places where proponents of each of the media met, were often quickly shattered with broken records, often endlessly repeating the same slogans over and over again. The 'Vinyl Wars' it was called, and who doesn't remember the horrors! Soon the war reduced the vinyl record to a niche, owned only by a few die-hard fanboys.

Apparently the manufacturers had learned nothing from the early 1920's, when a bitter war was fought over the Nipkow Disk versus the CRT Tube. That format war, soon leading to a global economy disaster in 1928, also reduced both formats to an absolute niche market and none of the two are hardly to be found anywhere. Some rather pessimistic electronic prophets predict the same to happen with the pending Plasma / LCD war: The Flat Screen Format War. Only time will tell.

But the most mean, ruthless and horrible war was fought over the so-called floppy media formats. In the seventies and the early eighties of the last century, PC-users were happy using a 5.25" so-called flexible disc for their permanent storage, as well as for buying programs on. They were fondly called "diskettes" or "floppies" or "floppy disks", and could hold as many as 360 kilobytes! Everyone was happy, they knew it was enough for their common use. This was confirmed by a computer wizard who said "640 kbytes is all anyone needs", so only two of those "floppies" was clearly enough for anyone. It was the SDVD of the floppy era. Everybody was happy.

Then, in 1987, disaster struck. Greedy manufacturers tried to get some of the dough. First they sneakily changed the physical format of the floppy to 3.5", then they changed the density of the medium as well. Still the tracks were read and written by an electro-magnetic "head", but the smaller and incompatible discs contained 720 kBytes now. To sell the concept, they also smeared the name of the computer wizard, of whom nobody has heard anymore by now. No, 640kB wasn't enough! This was the HD-DVD of the floppy period although the disc itself was called "DD". But of course it got worse.

Now the industry launched a second hi-density diskette, the BD of floppy: the HD-diskette, holding 1.44MBytes of storage. "That's much more than 720k", the proponents sneared, "and much better therefore". This time, forgetting all about the Nipkow / CRT and the Vinyl Wars (or the Film and Photograph Wars), let alone learning a lesson from those, a really ugly war emerged.

Yes, a terrible, cruel and bloody one we must add. Some programs could only be bought on one of the formats. Customers entering Walmart to buy a box of one of the formats often couldn't find them. Many J6P PC-users were totally confused, dealers didn't have storage space enough to store both formats, discs of one format wouldn't play on drives of the other. The price went up, because manufacturers couldn't decide which of the both formats to manufacter. People stopped buying programs on the "wrong" floppy. Many consumers stopped buying floppy disks at all.

In despair the industry tried to bring out combo-drives, which helped for only a short time, but when it became impossible to even format a 720kB diskette on newer drives, the once so promising format withered away, even the release of pre-formatted diskettes didn't really help. The format totally disappeared (only present in the nostalgic collection of a few nostalgic collectors), never to become anything more than a poor product in a niche market. Just like the other contestants in all those previous format wars.

For a short period, the industry tried to replace the now-forgotten floppy by the likes of CDs, or DVDs (soon engaged themselves in the so-called R-Wars), but to no avail. Downloading, backup-on-line and techniques like that seem to have the future. Stupid looking strange devices are used by consumers who don't know even the name of the once loved Floppy anymore.

Marlene Dietrich sang it so well:

Where have all the Floppies gone?
Long time lasting...
Where have all the Floppies gone, where did they turn?
Where have all the Floppies gone:
STICK the memory where there ain't no sun!
When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

Last week, my grandchildren (all ten of 'em) came into my study. "Granddad, why did they have those Floppy Wars. Why fight over condoms at all?"
It brought tears in my eyes.

Hey, wait a minute. There's something wrong with that story!
Ah, I see: I have no grandchildren at all!

Cees

DanR · 06-03-2007, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein

I truly feel sorry for my fellow HD-DVD owners who probably
feel very slighted by the stand that has been made against their
format. We love our players! HD-DVD owners should also be
very proud to hear that I have talked with a few industry people
myself whose company is supporting BOTH formats but are pro HD-DVD.
This only goes to show that people in the industry are just as much
divided on these formats as consumers are.

I agree with most of what you said Ron, except for the above. Let me ask you a question. Do you also feel bad for the BD owners who felt slighted by what Harry Knowles wrote over at AICN? After all, Bill's article is a direct retort to that inaccurate article by Harry!! Harry's article is rather laughable. If he didn't have glaringly wrong statements (such as the title count for each format, that only HD DVD is backwards compatible, etc), then we could at least respect what he wrote as his opinion. As it stands, it seems like he's endorsing one particular format over another when he clearly either doesn't understand what he's talking about or has been misled. So how can we respect his opinions and conclusions?

Who do you think has more website hits? AICN or The Digital Bits?

Finally, I don't agree with people feeling "slighted" when someone or some website "disses" their format, either format. These formats are metal, plastic, and bits, nothing more. I don't understand why people are so emotional over this. So someone who owns a website picked the other format, BFD. Enjoy what you have. Really, if someone is worried about "losing thier investment" in either format, then they really have no business being in this format war at this point in time and that tells me they didn't correctly understand the risks vs. rewards of owning either format right now.

Regards,
Dan

Douglas Monce · 06-03-2007, 11:23 AM

Well put, Cees.

DanR · 06-03-2007, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Monce

I would agree with you if Bill Hunt were saying "Here are the pros and cons of each format, here is the good and the bad...now you decide."

But he isn't. He is saying "Trust me, I know better than you, just take my word for it." That isn't literally what he is saying but that is surely what his endorsement of blu-ray says. It's clear that from now on HD DVD really won't get a fair shake from his web site.

Aren't you accusing Bill of doing the same thing Harry Knowles just did? Based on Harry's inaccuracies, do you think he gave BD a fair shake? It cuts both ways, whether you choose to see it from both sides is another story.

Regards,
Dan

Douglas Monce · 06-03-2007, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanR

Aren't you accusing Bill of doing the same thing Harry Knowles just did? Based on Harry's inaccuracies, do you think he gave BD a fair shake? It cuts both ways, whether you choose to see it from both sides is another story.

Regards,
Dan

No I don't think Harry Knowles has given BD a fair shake at all. Personally I think Harry Knowles, while being a very nice guy, is a hack who rarely understands what he professes to be an expert in. But to be fair to Harry his site doesn't clam to be a clearing house of information about digital home theater formats. He writes fanboy film reviews and passes on "industry insider" rumors.

Doug

Edwin-S · 06-03-2007, 11:32 AM

Some of the comments I've read in this thread crack me up. This fellow has been subjected to numerous amounts of innuendo, attacks, and name calling (aka "blu-ray bill") in various threads on this board. All of this before he took an "official" stand. Now, he actually comes out and states his unequivocal support for Blu-ray and the result is numerous statements that amount to "how dare he". What the man is being subjected to is just ridiculous.....especially suggestions like the one demanding that HTF remove links to the fellow's site to prevent "noobs" from supposedly being mislead by his writings.