Terminator 2 HD DVD beats T2 Blu-Ray!? - Page 4

Shawn Perron · 06-09-2007, 10:08 AM

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As Cees said above....if the audio track were sped up to 25 fps it would almost instantly go out of sync with a 24P picture. So unless they have sped up the picture as well, there is no speed up of the audio track.

You are misunderstanding what I mean. Rather then go back to the 24fps master they converted to 25fps for PAL DVD, they seem to be porting that same 25fps back to 24fps. From what I understand most PAL DVDs sound tracks were time compressed due to a shorter running length. If you use the 24fps sound track without time compressing it for 25fps video, then you will quickly lose sync with the movie. From what I've read, most of these sound tracks were time compressed without using some form of pitch correction to prevent a higher pitched end result. If these higher pitched sound tracks are then expanded back to 24fps with software that pitch corrects, the sound tracks will then have the sound of a "PAL sped up" movie while being the same length as the original sound track.

I'd be willing to bet that Studio Canal is using a PAL corrected source to create thier HD-DVDs rather then going back to the original 24fps master they would have used to create the 25fps master for PAL. This would make sense if Studio canal did not want to permanently maintain 2 copies of a master for every movie they own the rights to.

Cees Alons · 06-09-2007, 10:26 AM

Shawn,

This starts to sound a little bit like the infamous maintenance chip in elevators, that would bring them to a halt on Jan, 1st, 2000 (the maintenance chips didn't appear to exist at all).

IF they decided to use a sped-up 25 fps audiotrack, created by playing it faster without pitch correction, then why wouldn't they just play it slower to get the correct pitch again, but instead add pitch "correction" to make it sound like the sped-up track?

Of course it's "thinkable" and "possible" (just like the logic of the elevator maintenance chip) but it's actually rather improbable, isn't it?

Cees

Shawn Perron · 06-09-2007, 10:51 AM

If you think about it, the proper behavior for any software that time compresses or time expands would be to automatically pitch correct. Unless you are intentionally trying to get a high pitch or low pitched sound that differs from the original, why would you want pitch correction disabled? If the original master has a PAL time compressed sound track, but it is improperly pitched, what happens if the software they are using to time expand it has pitch correction on by default? The result would be the first wave of Studio Canal discs. Sound tracks that are the correct length, but slightly higher pitched then they should be. This would be about the only scenario that would make sense. It's that whole Oscam's Razor thing. It's the simplest answer, so is most likely the correct one. Unless someone can come up with another answer that starts with a correctly pitched sound track and ends with a soundtrack that is somehow pitch adjusted prior to being mastered for HD-DVD.

High pitched 25fps PAL sound track -> software time expands for 24fps with pitch correction enabled -> High pitched 24fps sound track

High pitched 25fps PAL sound track -> software time expands without pitch correction -> Original correctly pitched 24fps sound track

The whole original problem could be as simple as unclicking one box in the software configuration to disable pitch correction. This makes far more sense then any other scenario I've heard mentioned.

Cees Alons · 06-09-2007, 11:32 AM

Shawn,

More sense than assuming no-one made a mistake whatsoever?
(The French aren't exactly technical fools, you know.

)

Don't forget that this "whole original problem", as you called it, isn't present on this release - unless your copy is the exception.

Did your copy have a pitch problem? How did you listen to the DTS HD Master tracks?

Cees

Shawn Perron · 06-09-2007, 11:38 AM

When did I ever say this release had a problem? :p

Just commenting on the previous releases with the problem.

ScottJH · 06-09-2007, 12:11 PM

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Originally Posted by Shawn Perron

When did I ever say this release had a problem? :p

Just commenting on the previous releases with the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Perron

I think thew concensus I have read is that while there may still be a slight problem with this batch of Studio Canal titles, if it exists at all, it is extremely minor.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9&page=1&pp=30
http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=28389
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1&page=1&pp=30
The consensus I have read is just the opposite. There was one person(Honey1) who got the disc 3 weeks early who thought there was a pitch problem. By the time other people received it, Honey1's opinion had changed to a attitude of not sure, wait for other people's opinion. Close to 100% of the people who actually own the T2 HD DVD don't hear a pitch issue.

Cees Alons · 06-09-2007, 12:39 PM

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When did I ever say this release had a problem? :p

Just commenting on the previous releases with the problem.

You mean you were ... thread crapping?

Cees

Shawn Perron · 06-09-2007, 01:02 PM

I was hardly thread crapping, this is your post immediately above the 1st post I made:

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It's impossible to use a sped-up PAL audio master and play it next to a 1080p/24 or even 1080p/60 video track of the movie. The audio would almost immediately get out of sync.

If they would use a PAL master and slow it down to synchronize with the film, it would no longer be higher pitched.

The audio on the French T2 is DTS-HD Master. That even didn't exist before anywhere. So in reality it must be a new track, made for this release.

Apparently responding to something you brought up is thread crapping now?

Anyway, this is a problem that can just as easily hit Blu-Ray as HD-DVD in Europe. I don't doubt that Studio Canal has it figured out now, but you certainly can't automatically discount those that still think they hear a problem. A majority of people never felt there was a problem with the first batch of titles until it was proven with recorded audio clips. This is where the early adopters beta test these formats for those that come later.

Cees Alons · 06-09-2007, 01:33 PM

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Apparently responding to something you brought up is thread crapping now?

We were still talking about the T2 version under discussion here. I replied to a post of Dave Mack then.

But, please, let it rest. It's all cleared up now.

Cees

Jeff Adkins · 06-09-2007, 01:39 PM

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Originally Posted by ScottJH

The consensus I have read is just the opposite. There was one person(Honey1) who got the disc 3 weeks early who thought there was a pitch problem. By the time other people received it, Honey1's opinion had changed to a attitude of not sure, wait for other people's opinion. Close to 100% of the people who actually own the T2 HD DVD don't hear a pitch issue.

That's great news on T2. I only brought up The Graduate because I had hoped they had fixed this problem by now and it's part of the recent wave of SC releases. The good news is that 90% of people will probably never even notice. I never notice it on PAL discs that are in another language (Jean De Florette for example), but with actors or music that I'm familiar with I notice it immediately.

I know Amir was talking to SC about getting this resolved. Glad to hear that at least T2 is fine.

RobertR · 06-09-2007, 02:41 PM

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Glad to hear that at least T2 is fine

Me too. It was a concern for me.