Johannes S

"Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

My cineastic heart is feeling very sad. Is anybody here to comfort me, please?

I received both John Wayne films on HD DVD today and could not wait to immediately watch and spot check them.

What I saw was a very nice picture with good resolution. A definite improvement to the SD version I watched last week. So far the good news.

No, what makes me sad about the transfers?

IT IS THE AWFUL AND DISGUSTING GRAIN FILTERING!

Gone are the days of early HD releases like "Apollo 13" or "Backdraft" or even more recent releases like "The Searchers" with lots of wonderful, natural film grain.

I recognize a highest quality 2 or even 4K scan as the basis for these new HD transfers. But where is the natural film grain? In case of "Rio Bravo" there are moments with wonderful natural grain, particularly in bright scenes, but all the blacks, most shades of gray and brown are sometimes filtered to grainlessness. ( = filtered to death)

In my personal opinion, they ruined the enjoyment of one of the best westerns, by ruining their own high quality film scan by means of digital degraining. "The Cowboys" is degrained even more, sometimes they stole us the grain completely here.

I am feeling sad, but I acknowledge there are many consumers who like these "sterilized" grain reduced transfers. I hate them! I am afraid to read reviews soon by so called "experts", applauding how "artifact free" and "noise free" the picture is. They probably do not know to differentiate between (wonderful) grain and (ugly) noise...

Examples: Check "Rio Bravo" at the following scenes: 36min 50s until approx. 40min: The dark scenes are totally degrained. Check time code 45/30: The blacks are again grainless, eliminating all shadow detail and "3D-feeling".

STOP IT, WARNER, PLEASE!

Let me note, I also spot checked the new Paramount HD releases of "Coming to America" and "Trading Places": Again, a filtered mess!

One of the few moments to see some natural film grain of "Trading Places" is the very first second of the movie, beginning with the Paramount logo. You notice that with a lag of less than a second the digital degrainer starts its dire work. This is the second where you see how the film grain is supposed to look, before the degrainer destroys the transfer. It remains a sharp, but lifeless degrained picture...

Douglas Monce

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes S My cineastic heart is feeling very sad. Is anybody here to comfort me, please? I received both John Wayne films on HD DVD today and could not wait to immediately watch and spot check them. What I saw was a very nice picture with good resolution. A definite improvement to the SD version I watched last week. So far the good news. No, what makes me sad about the transfers? IT IS THE AWFUL AND DISGUSTING GRAIN FILTERING! Gone are the days of early HD releases like "Apollo 13" or "Backdraft" or even more recent releases like "The Searchers" with lots of wonderful, natural film grain.

I just got Rio Bravo tonight. This is my favorite western of all time and I have to say I think it looks fantastic. I'm not seeing anything that looks like grain filtering. The level of grain I'm seeing seems to be about right for matted 35mm film of this age.

Doug

Jeff Adkins

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

I will be interested in hearing some comparisons on this title (Trading Places as the Blu-Ray is encoded AVC and I would assume that the HD-DVD is VC-1. All of my VC-1 discs except for The Searchers and Planet Earth have this filtered look to them. I'm curious to know if this filtering is being done to the actual master or the VC-1 encode.

Paul Arnette

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

Jeff actually brings up a good point, when responding in this thread it would be helpful to specify whether you are referring to the Blu-ray or HD DVD release. That way we'll know if we're talking 'apples to apples' or not.

Robert Crawford

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

Also, people are reporting that the 05-22-07 SD DVD release of Rio Bravo appears darker and more brownish than the prior SD DVD release. Does the same apply to either the BRD or HD DVD?




Crawdaddy

G.W. McLintock: Camille, you're on your own.

Jordan_E

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

Oh man, I was looking forward to Rio Bravo...oh well, need to get it anyway.

And you believe, at heart, everyone's a killer...

Paul Arnette

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

For those interested in seeing what Robert is referring to, checkout DVD Beaver's SD comparison here:

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews8/rio-bravo.htm

Robert Crawford

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

Also, it might look fine to your eyes.

G.W. McLintock: Camille, you're on your own.

Robert George

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

Anyone interested in these films should take a single opinion as just that (no offense meant to Johannes), a single opinion. I've had a chance to look at all four of the films mentioned on HD DVD. I disagree that these appear "filtered" to remove grain. What I do see is the natural grain structure of the film element preserved without the distracting artifacting associated with low bit rate MPEG-2 we have been used to on DVD.

In the case of Rio Bravo, this film has never looked this good that I have seen. Colors are solid and vibrant and density is wonderfiul. This image holds up extremely well projected in 1080p at 106". Extremely film-like. I'm very much looking forward to having enough time to sit down and savor this great western classic in its entirety.

The Cowboys does appear a bit "cleaner", but that is to be expected from a more modern production. Film grain is still present, albeit rather more fine than in the Rio Bravo elements. The trtansfer is still quite sharp and detailed with solid, natural color balance.

The two Paramount films are rather different in appearance despite being more contemporary. Trading Places is very smooth and clean, though I don't feel this looks "filtered". Just a nice clean film element. I see no telltales of excessive DNR or other video processing. Coming To America is the least improved of the bunch with only a fairly minor improvement over the DVD edition. I bit sharper and more detailed with more solid colors, but still a rather dull, dated look overall. I'm sure the more important attraction for most fans of this movie is the 16:9 transfer as the old DVD was not enhanced for widescreen.

My two Pesos.

Jordan_E

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD

And these 46 year old eyes don't pick out as many inconsistancies as they used to...but, the older you get, the bigger the screen, and at 116" Rio Bravo should look quite nice.

And you believe, at heart, everyone's a killer...

Roger Rollins

Re: "Rio Bravo" and "The Cowboys" in HD