[DaViD Boulet]

I attended the demo and met with Jesse from HTF, Plazman from AVS, and Longshot on Saturday morning:

The BD player is only a prototype unit running in 1080i via HDMI into the qualia 1920 x 1080 SXRD (I believe 70" diag) RP. Within the display being "line doubled" to 1080p I assume via DRC or some other non-3-2-compatible algorithm. Much like the 1080i demos of HD DVD, this does not showcase the format to its fullest potential, and artifacts are bound to be visible related to the bobbing/DRC progressive-conversion from the 1080i60 feed. The prototype BD unit (Sony) was not able to play DVDs so we couldn't test it's upconversion capability.

Having said all of that...


The image was the most stunningly natural, crisp, detailed and artifact-free I have ever seen outside of film.

Let me nip this in the bud as talk about "artifacts" is proliferating at AVS:

I noticed NO obvious edge-ringing even from .5 screen widths. Upon CLOSE inspection... like less the .25 screen-widths, some clean-edge "haloing" could be seen around sharp text in *some* instances. This was not MOSQUITO noise... it was clean ringing that resembles HF boosting, and it affected the test of the STILL FRAME MENUS as well as the sharp-edge text in the motion-clips subtitling... which leads me to believe that it's not a product of the MPEG2 compression but rather an artifacts coming from some other part of the chain... most likely in the qualia set as part of the DRC interpolation/processing.

In any case, there is NO REASON to assume that the extremely minor (most folks couldn't even see it when getting up close) edge-rining, which was NOT mosquito noise, was compression related as it appeared in exactly the same form on static-menus which were not even MPEG2 compressed.


Now that this has been cleared up,

This was my first time experiencing HD material that was able to "pan" without any detail smearing or digital noise whatsoever. Clean Clean Clean. Also amazing how the various source material looked so different in the demo. The new Adam Sanlder film clips were breathtakingly clear... 3-dimensional and so detailed that from 1.25 screen-widths distance it looked *windowlike*... not film-like... not "digital" either... just like a window. Wow.

Again... this was all without true 1080p thru-put or 3-2 pulldown reversal for proper frame-reconstruction (that should look EVEN BETTER ).

The other clip that took my breath away was the Lawrence of Arabia demo which also had a 3-dimensional "window like" appearance. Astounding. It *looked* like projected 70mm. I have never had that effect from a digital/electronically projected image in my life.

Surprisingly, The Fifth Element looked no better to my eyes than the sony super-bit DVD upscaled to 1080P. I found that rather interesting. It was the least impressive demo clips of them all. I assume they either accidentally used the Standard-def master or the HD master on hand just lacks the clarity of some of other film transfers (still surprising).

Narnia was amazing. The HD clips looked FAR SUPERIOR to the 35mm projection that I've seen of this film (twice). The SD DVD has a softness which actually looks like the 35mm prints I saw theatrically. However, the HD clips were MUCH more detailed than either... and the result was much more satisfying experience IMO. This will be a "reference" title on Blu-ray sure to drive lots of sales.

Kill Bill showed clear gains over SD in "split screen" mode but the DVD is also severely filtered and in no way fairly demonstrates the capabilities of the Standard-Def DVD format so that's a "loaded" comparison... but the HD image was breathtaking none-the-less.

Bottom line. MPEG2 clearly has the ability to produce some jaw-droppingly transparent, artifact-free images from even just one screen-width viewing distance. However, that doesn't mean I still don't want to see VC1 on BD sooner than later as it will ease bit-space issues considerably on BD... especially 25 gig encodings.

We talked to the salesman but he wasn't aware of any way to view the bit-rate of the MPEG2 encoding on the BD demo disc. This would have been of great interest to us all (and you) since obviously the bit-rate afforded MPEG2 on 25gig BD is a key issue in the final video quality of first-release BD titles.

How would VC1 compare? I'd love to know. But it would also be imperative to view both on the same display via the exact same chain of signal processing... ideally both in native 1080p24 without any added artifacts from poor deinterlacing or signal processing post decompression in the player.

Plazman (from AVS) was gracious and invited a few of us over to his home to view HD DVD on his 720P plasma display. It was also stunning, but less "analog" to my eyes than the BD demo on the SXRD qualia which I attribute not to any fault of DVD, but rather the indemic pixel structure of plasma screens and lower resolution of 720P. I very much look forward to seeing HD DVD side-by-side in native 1080p24 next to BD on the same full 1920 x 1080 p display at some point in the future. I expect HD DVD to present the SAME stunning image quality.


Ok, I have to bet back to work! Been a busy weekend with home rennovations and a busy day at the office but wanted to post my quick impressions in this thread...

dave

[Nils Luehrmann]

You are not making it easy on me to wait for a 2nd gen player.

Great review David, and thanks once again for sharing your knowledge and insights.

[RobertR]

Quote:

We talked to the salesman but he wasn't aware of any way to view the bit-rate of the MPEG2 encoding on the BD demo disc. This would have been of great interest to us all (and you) since obviously the bit-rate afforded MPEG2 on 25gig BD is a key issue in the final video quality of first-release BD titles.

I think that point is crucial, David. I never had any doubt that Sony could produce outstanding images with a tweaked-to-the-gills demo disc. The REAL test will be actual full length movies on production discs with production players.

[Ed St. Clair]

DaViD,
Just so you know, when you say "window like" you get post like this;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordan_E

Really. Movies don't have that looking-out-a-window look. When have you gone to a movie theater and said: Hey, that's like looking out a window!

&

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent_P

Interesting, and here I thought this was the "hometheaterforum", not the "lookingoutthewindowforum".
Vincent

Glad you got a chance to be the first on your block to checkout BD & thanks for sharing.

Hope this experience helps get you off the 1080i is OK train. I know, I know, I know, on paper you find 1080i to be fine. However, I'm going with Joe Kane's professional opinion that 1080p out preforms 1080i & my simple mind that tells me 1080p thoughout the video chain is superior to interlacing.

Isn't HD GREAT!!!

[DaViD Boulet]

FYI,

good large-format -> 70 mm prints do have that "window like" appearance even on film.

since many 1080p transfers come from negatives and interpostives they may have more apparent sharpness/detail than many release prints and therefore be more "windowlike" as a result.

One can always argue what's the most accurate way to present material in HD of course.

Just like with the digital clean up and digital registration of technicolor 3-strip films etc.

Quote:

Hope this experience helps get you off the 1080i is OK train. I know, I know, I know, on paper you find 1080i to be fine. However, I'm going with Joe Kane's professional opinion that 1080p out preforms 1080i & my simple mind that tells me 1080p thoughout the video chain is superior to interlacing.

When have I *ever* said that 1080i is ok? I've only said that *when* 1080i is *not* filtered and then *properly deiterlaced* back to full 1080p is it "ok" as a transmission protocol because you're still getting the actual 100% real 1080p image in playback on the screen. If it's real 1080P when you watch it on your 1920 x 1080p display, then it doesn't matter how it was "packed" or "sent" along the way. The danger of 1080i60 being used as a common protocol for transmission is that so few displays have 3-2 pulldown to reconstruct true 1080p from the signal... so keeping it 1080p24 the whole way is the safest way to get the proper result on the 1080P display device.


BTW, YES, HD is GREAT!!!

[DaViD Boulet]

Quote:

I think that point is crucial, David. I never had any doubt that Sony could produce outstanding images with a tweaked-to-the-gills demo disc. The REAL test will be actual full length movies on production discs with production players.

I wouldn't deny it. Though the HD DVD demos that were "tweaked" had many more compression artifacts by comparison!

But naturally what will matter is real BD encoded titles. Fingers crossed!

[Sean Bryan]

I read that "Click" was filmed digitally with Sony's Hi Def camera. Is this correct?

If so, that's probably the reason it had the most "window like" appearance.

Looking forward to BD! The best part is that since I have HD DVD I may be able to hold off until BD's second generation (though that's not a guarantee).

[DaViD Boulet]

Sean,

I actually wondered if that was the case. It was *dramatically* clearer, sharper, more detailed and "real" looking than all the other demo material except LOA which also had that "window like" look.

If so... Sony's camera has come a long way!!! Wow.

[Jesse Blacklow]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Bryan

I read that "Click" was filmed digitally with Sony's Hi Def camera. Is this correct?

If so, that's probably the reason it had the most "window like" appearance.

According to a couple sources, it was the new Sony Digital HD camera. The PQ really was shocking, in a good way.

Quote:

Looking forward to BD! The best part is that since I have HD DVD I may be able to hold off until BD's second generation (though that's not a guarantee).

Well, rumors are that most (at least 8 or 9) of the major Blu-ray manufacturers will have players out by the end of the year, at price points ranging from the high-end Pioneer to at or near the HD-A1. The Panasonic and Pioneer have been pushed back to the fall, so it's very possible they'll have HDMI 1.3 and full codec support.

[RobertR]

Quote:

The Panasonic and Pioneer have been pushed back to the fall, so it's very possible they'll have HDMI 1.3 and full codec support.

They'd BETTER have them at the prices they're charging, or a LOT of people won't bother with them.