Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer? - Page 4

Alfonso_M · 06-07-2008, 11:45 PM

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Originally Posted by Scooter

Now..I would tell'em to wait...and see just what Tosh may have up thier sleeve.

well, this is exactly what I'd be telling every one that asks me about Blu Ray from now on.

This news has certainly completly eliminated any thoughts of buying into Blu ray for me now or in the near future.

Cetainly don't need another future pile of useless expensive Blu ray dvds to go with my obsolete HD-DVD collection, besides my equipment rack is maxed out already.

Super Hi-REZ DVDs/near Hi_DEF DVDs will be more than enough for me, and I don't care about Lossless even though I'm setup with SACD. So I'll wait.

troy evans · 06-08-2008, 01:22 AM

Why is this whole thing starting to sound like all Tosh is doing is re-releasing HD DVD players re-tooled to just upconvert sd dvd? How does this new upconversion differ from the already fantastic ability of the higher end HD DVD players? I always thought the Tosh HD DVD players did an awesome job upconverting the sd dvds that were mastered or remastered in hi-def, what's different here? More than likely, nothing. We would really have to be foolish to buy into this. I love HD DVD. It was the first of the two formats I bought into. When they threw in the towel after the Warner announcement I was disapointed, to say the least. I have un-easy feelings towards anything they have to offer in the way of new tech at this point and that won't change for awhile. This is desperate from them IMO. I can't support it. I will keep throwing my weight exclusively behind Blu-ray. Blu-ray is the hi-def format, like it or not. I can't accept a "maybe it will be as good as hi-def" player when we already have one out there that definately is.

Jari K · 06-08-2008, 04:59 AM

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Originally Posted by Michael Elliott

If Toshiba knows there's no actual way for this new machine to make SD discs looks better than HD then I doubt they're going to try and full those people who will or do know the difference.

There´s no way to make SD discs to "look HD". You can improve the "upscaling" to that certain point, but the limits are there. Like I said earlier, people seem to have misunderstood the whole concept of "upscaling". It was never meant to make SD to look anything more than "quality SD".

Since people started to buy (some years back) these HD-TV sets/projectors/etc and e.g. HDTV-set has only one "native resolution" (e.g. 1080p), they needed the player that can "upscale" the SD to match that HD resolution. The point wasn´t to make "SD to look like HD". Of course, since the upscaling can be complicated process, the quality varies from player-to-player and from TV-to-TV. This "close to HD" was basically invented during the format war and is (apparently) now used purely to the marketing purposes.

I have no problem, if e.g. Toshiba is marketing some player with "best upscaling in business" or something (since we ALL should know, that nothing is perfect and we need proper reviews/tests with every player anyway) - even with "we´re using new upscaling technology".

But bringing Blu-ray into this and use some "make your SD DVD to look like Blu-ray"-slogans is pure BS.

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Originally Posted by Michael Elliott

This new machine might be aimed at folks who simply don't know the difference or don't want to have to rebuy their entire collection again. If this new machine is an option to avoid rebuying their collection then I'd guess these are the people who Toshiba are going to aim at.

What´s this "rebuying their collection" stuff? Who says, that you "have to rebuy" your whole collection etc? Is this the "main argument" not to buy a Blu-ray-player?

I have, what, 2000 SD DVDs. There´s no way in hell, that I´m ever going to "rebuy" all of them in BD. Most of my "horror/exploitation/Euro cult"-titles will probably never (of course, who knows for sure) be released on BD and there are zillion of "classics" from Warner alone, etc etc.

"Rebuying their collection" has a very little to do with Blu-ray. It´s totally up to you.

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Originally Posted by Michael Elliott

Perhaps I'm wrong but I still believe the majority of DVD owners either don't care or simply don't know. I'd be willing to bet just about anything I have that the majority of them can't even take advantage of a 16x9 transfer or a DD 5.1 track. Most of the people I know are watching their DVDs on a 4x3 screen and using the TV speakers only. If these people can't even take full advantage of SD then I doubt they are going to make any type of jump to a new format.

This issue has been discussed to death in here, especially during the "war" (and after that in the infamous "doomsday"-threads). I believe the tide is slowly turning and it´s a fact, that many now have at least that HDTV at home.. With that HDTV at home, it´s quite tempting to go with Blu-ray.

Time´ll tell, of course, but I don´t see that the current situation is as grim as Michael says.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Elliott

..who have built a collection on $5 movies that they should turn their back on that and start buying a new format and new movies for over $25.

If "5$" is the limit, then I doubt that you´ll need a Blu-ray-player (it´s not that every people have to get one).

Still, many people buying movies all the time are probably wondering, that should they still get their NEW releases in DVD for 15-17$, if you can get the same title in Blu-ray for $20-25 (sure, some Fox-titles are more expensive etc - just making a point here).

So again, it´s not just "rebuying their collection", it´s making that decision to get those new releases in Blu-ray now when you can (not all of them, though) and then be selective and "rebuy" only those titles that you really want/need. And perhaps even get them for these on-going sales ("3 in the price of 2" etc).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Elliott

Now, if Toshiba tells these people that they can save a few hundred bucks and get the "same quality of Blu-Ray", I'm sure the majority would go for this idea.

It´s not going to be "same quality of Blu-Ray". If they´re saying that, they´re lying. And what is "majority"? People just abandon the idea of getting that Blu-ray-player and the whole A/V community starts buying one magical player from Toshiba? I doubt it.

Give it a rest Toshiba. Like Carlito says: "You lost MF".

edit: Btw. Why Toshiba didn´t want to make Blu-ray-players? Business decision (they wanted out from the HD-game etc) or more "personal" (they didn´t want to be part of Blu-ray, which won)?

I mean let´s think about; Toshiba Blu-ray player with "best upscaling" in the business (and decent price range). That "slogan" would sell some players for sure. Oh well...

Michael Elliott · 06-08-2008, 11:43 AM

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Originally Posted by Jari K

There´s no way to make SD discs to "look HD".

You and I know this. The majority of members here know this. But your average shopper at WM, BB and CC doesn't know this. Toshiba will sell to them and not us.

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But bringing Blu-ray into this and use some "make your SD DVD to look like Blu-ray"-slogans is pure BS.

Yes. Everyone here knows that but we are still a very small portion.

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Time´ll tell, of course, but I don´t see that the current situation is as grim as Michael says.

I certainly didn't mean to make it sound grim. I personally don't see the problem with SD staying the "top dog" with BR, downloads or this new Toshiba machine battling for second place. There's really nothing wrong with any of this stuff so the people will decide what suits them the best. This is why I said I think the majority are happy with how their current DVDs look on their current systems.

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So again, it´s not just "rebuying their collection", it´s making that decision to get those new releases in Blu-ray now when you can (not all of them, though) and then be selective and "rebuy" only those titles that you really want/need. And perhaps even get them for these on-going sales ("3 in the price of 2" etc).

The majority of the shoppers at WW don't have the money to buy something now just to wait for the future. They can't afford to pay $17 for a SD and then buy the HD versions for $25 when it is released six months or a year later.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't recall the mainstream getting into DVD just to show off their theater system. They jumped in for extras, not having to rewind a tape, smaller product and the fact that studios turned their backs on VHS. I personally don't think the studios are going to kill off SD. Unless they do I don't see the format going anywhere because most people sit down and watch a movie. They don't sit down to show something off or to inspect each and every frame for EE or the wrong sky color.

Since getting that PS3 a few weeks ago I've been renting BR discs and I have my own feelings on them but that's for another thread. I know what to look for in a transfer so I'm "in the know" like the majority of people here. My girlfriend, her two kids and her mother on the other hand are your average customers. Not a single one of them could look and see a difference to where they'd jump.

I'm in Louisville and the Cincinnati area when I'm at the girlfriends house but I just don't hear too many people talking about it. The biggest video store in Louisville rents both HD and BR but I've been told there are under 7 people renting them. The Movie Gallery up by my girlfriend's house just started renting them but the Blockbuster hasn't. No one take this as political but the working scene in Louisville is piss poor right now. Sometime from tomorrow to the end of the year I'm going to be out of a job when GE closes doors. There are 4000 other people there that are going to be out of a job. Ford is closing and cutting more and more in Louisville, which has already hurt 3000 people and 2000 more could be coming in the next few months.

The point of saying that is none of them care if BR is #1 or is SD is old fashioned. A lot of people are in that shape so they haven't followed any of the wars between HD and BR and they won't follow whatever war is next. Outside of video folks, no one cares and they never will. You mentioned exploitation titles, which I love as well. Jess Franco is my favorite but I know that his titles only sell a few thousand copies. Most people don't care for him and never will. It would be foolish for me to hope for a day when VAMPYROS LESBOS sells more copies than SHREK. I think us home theater fans are being somewhat foolish as well when we hope that something kills off SD or even puts a major dent in it.

Again, I could be wrong or just too negative.

Jari K · 06-08-2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Elliott

I certainly didn't mean to make it sound grim. I personally don't see the problem with SD staying the "top dog" with BR, downloads or this new Toshiba machine battling for second place. There's really nothing wrong with any of this stuff so the people will decide what suits them the best.

Well, for me, BD is the "top dog", but I´m fully aware that for the "masses" SD DVD is still the nr.1 choice. I personally hope, that BD will become "nr.1" eventually and it´ll happen in a "natural way" (people will get HDTV-sets, then Blu-ray-player when the prices go down, then more BD-releases... etc).

DVD and Blu-ray will live together for a long time and I don´t have any major problems with that. But the (bigger) studios should release EVERY film in both formats from now on (if they really want that the people could "choose"). That´s lacking at the moment and is pain in the ass for the people like me. I refuse to buy SD DVDs, when it comes to "new films" - they won´t get my money if there´s no BD-release.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Elliott

Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't recall the mainstream getting into DVD just to show off their theater system.

...They don't sit down to show something off or to inspect each and every frame for EE or the wrong sky color.

While I see your point (I also feel that people are sometimes just nitpicking), this is not the whole truth. Since many have HDTV-set etc, it´s only natural that they want 1080p-material. Many just want the "best A/V quality" (at least that´s the case with me) and Blu-ray delivers that (of course, all "formats" have mediocre releases). Sure, I can show some "great 1080p-quality and lossless audio" to my friends, but it´s true that not all of them really care (they don´t really watch SD DVDs that much - those who are real "movie buffs" have also BD when it comes to my friends).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Elliott

No one take this as political but the working scene in Louisville is piss poor right now. Sometime from tomorrow to the end of the year I'm going to be out of a job when GE closes doors. There are 4000 other people there that are going to be out of a job. Ford is closing and cutting more and more in Louisville, which has already hurt 3000 people and 2000 more could be coming in the next few months.

I fully understand this. There are times when we should take DVD, BD, A/V stuff etc just as they are; fun hobbies. "Real life" is usually somewhere else, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Elliott

You mentioned exploitation titles, which I love as well. Jess Franco is my favorite but I know that his titles only sell a few thousand copies. Most people don't care for him and never will. It would be foolish for me to hope for a day when VAMPYROS LESBOS sells more copies than SHREK.

Yes, with many of these "Euro cult"-titles, SD DVD will be the best way to see them. Again, I have no problem with that. Then again, "Blue Underground" will release several BD-titles in the near future, "TCM" is coming from "Dark Sky Films", Starz have some good horror-titles, etc. So now when the "war" is over, even the smaller companies have more courage to start releasing BD-titles. And in a certain way, I like to support them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Elliott

I think us home theater fans are being somewhat foolish as well when we hope that something kills off SD or even puts a major dent in it.

Like I said earlier, I want BD to be that "nr.1" choice for people (with big selection of movies and all new releases in BD also), but when it comes to DVD, I don´t really wish that the format "dies" just like that (which obviously doesn´t happen). Things can evolve in a natural way. When SD DVD "dies" at some point (could be 5-10 years from now, if ever?), people are already moved to BD.

IMO, now bigger studios should treat both formats (DVD and BD) as "equal" and release everything in both formats. That would at least give BD a fair chance. The "war" already did some major damage, there´s no need to have the "2nd round" with DVD and BD. Both of these formats can now live together and time will tell what´ll eventually happen.

Hartwig Hanser · 06-09-2008, 05:54 AM

I guess this is just another classic example of vaperware used to hinder the competition. No Upconverter can do much about the main problem of most DVDs out there: nasty artefacts like Edge enhancement, mosquito noise etc.

Hanson Yoo · 06-09-2008, 10:35 AM

If in fact this unit is a "Blu-Ray Killer", it isn't going to need more than a pilllow to do the trick:

Over half of US HD TV owners blurry on Blu-ray | Register Hardware

I agree with the sentiment that if BR isn't taking off, there's nothing to suggest an upscaling DVD player is going to fare any better.

I would still get one (provided it does close to what's advertised).

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What´s this "rebuying their collection" stuff? Who says, that you "have to rebuy" your whole collection etc? Is this the "main argument" not to buy a Blu-ray-player?

My appreciation for today's movies is pretty low, so for me, most of the movies I want to own are catalog titles. And I don't want to buy them again. What's the point of me getting BR if it's only for a handful of titles?

I was glad to replace my meager VHS collection (full of used tapes) with DVD's. My DVD collection, in contrast, is huge. And the used DVD's I have aren't any less quality than the new ones.

I do remember there were a lot of LD owners back in the day who didn't want to go DVD because they didn't want to rebuy their collections. If I had to flip my DVD's, I would go to BR. But I don't.

Scott-S · 06-09-2008, 10:58 AM

Well according to the stats on the Digital Bits front page, Blu-Ray was 10% of the disc sales for the latest week (6/8/08). Thats pretty darn good for this stage in the game.

So I think Blu is doing just fine.

This sentiment that Blu-ray is not taking off is just not valid. What do people expect? Every movie ever made available right now for $5 each?