Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer? - Page 2

AL KUENSTER · 06-04-2008, 04:05 PM

The upconversion with the new Oppo players bring out as much as I believe possible from the SDDVD's, not sure that Toshiba can do better!

Man-Fai Wong · 06-04-2008, 04:07 PM

Well, if this software is designed for the Cell processor, maybe us PS3 owners might get to inherit it.

BTW, are we sure that Sony didn't know about this already and even sold the Cell processor manufacturing to Toshiba w/ this in mind a few months back (after Toshiba waved the white flag in the HD format war)? That whole deal seemed kinda odd (and intriguing) to me, but I haven't heard a peep about it since then.

Also, what does DVD "extension" mean anyway? Are they actually going to revise and extend the DVD format specs, not just provide hardware for better upscaling? The linked article is a bit too cryptic to tell. Makes me wonder if they're not gonna come out w/ something like Super-DVD that's still fully backward compatible w/ DVD (and then try to get studios to release movies in this S-DVD format).

_Man_

Scooter · 06-04-2008, 04:27 PM

On another forum, someone mentioned something like this. Using the example of hybrid SACD's that would play on standard CD players. Thus a Super-DVD being backward compatible is feasible.

Jason Seaver · 06-04-2008, 04:48 PM

There was talk a month or two ago about a "DVD 2.0" format, basically bringing the low-overhead HD DVD stuff over - pop-up menus, internet connetivity, etc. (for all the tooth-gnashing about space being used on interactive stuff rather than picture/sound quality, I gather some of the HDi stuff can be done with very little code), maybe along with adding DD+ or even TrueHD as optional audio formats like DTS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AL KEUNSTER

The upconversion with the new Oppo players bring out as much as I believe possible from the SDDVD's, not sure that Toshiba can do better!

From what I gather, the difference between what Toshiba's planning and what current players do is that Toshiba is throwing enough power (both in terms of hardware and sophisticated algorithms) at the picture that it won't just be upconverting individual frames, which is what most of the machines out there do, but looking at multiple frames in sequence. That could, potentially, be a huge benefit, piecing together more detail than might be found in a single frame and also reducing compression problems that upconverting sometimes exacerbates.

That Toshiba is developing this technology is a good thing - I strongly suspect that the DVD players it makes it into won't cost significantly less than Blu-ray players, but once it's developed, it will likely also wind up in HDTVs (maybe making the digital channels on my cable system look less like complete ass), DVRs, and, yes, Blu-ray players (whether because Toshiba eventually manufactures them or because they license the technology to Sony, Samsung, etc.).

John Dirk · 06-04-2008, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein

John,

The political analogy was not necessary. I understand what you were
trying to say, but I wish you did it without going there.

Sorry Ron. I meant nothing by it.

Quote:

...If you introduce a player that can produce picture quality that rivals BD, at a cheaper price, it could be a "Blu-ray killer" of sorts.

I guess that's the million dollar question. Will it really rival BD quality. Being a technical person, I am of the belief that no "derived" output can ever truly exceed the quailty of its source.

Quote:

At this point, with Blu-ray being as expensive as it is, the
public isn't looking to replace the large libraries of DVDs in their
homes.

This is the best arguement in Toshiba's favor.

Quote:

On the plus side, this new Toshiba entry will force Blu-ray to
lower their prices on hardware and software ...

Again. I would anticipate this only if the quality is really comparable, and even then, only after it succeeds in taking substantial market share from Blu Ray, which will be somewhat difficult to quantify.

Quote:

I really don't blame Toshiba for doing what they are doing. They
have technology that will make standard DVDs look remarkably
comparable to Blu-ray. Why would anyone not want something like
this in their home?

Toshiba has confused the market with both HD-DVD and now their upconverting players. As others have implied, people may not be willing to purchase yet another ambiguous [from their perspective] Toshiba box. Then again, as long as it requires no long-term support and plays standard DVD's, who's to say. I for one, would be a bit wary.

John

Man-Fai Wong · 06-04-2008, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scooter

On another forum, someone mentioned something like this. Using the example of hybrid SACD's that would play on standard CD players. Thus a Super-DVD being backward compatible is feasible.

If that's really the route they're going, then it can certainly make sense. Of course, that wouldn't really make existing SD DVDs comparable to good Blu-ray quality though.

RE: the mentions of more sophisticated upconversion algorithms (and deployment in more expensive hardware that may not cost all that much lower than BD players), I guess that's possible if current upscaling players only handle upscaling one frame at a time. It still may not compare to the best quality that Blu-ray offers, but not every BD title offers that either. And who knows? The mainstream consumer may actually end up prefering the kinds of overcooked processing that might also show up in such algorithms, eg. witness the 120Hz motion smoothing processing of many LCD TVs, SVM, etc. It may not be true HD, but to the untrained eye, it may actually *seem* better than the true HD that a film-like BD offers -- and that would be unfortunate for us. Maybe Toshiba realizes this and believes that they can retain a huge majority of their DVD market that way while only losing the smaller population of enthusiasts/videophiles...

_Man_

Stephen_J_H · 06-04-2008, 05:52 PM

I think characterising this as the format war being about to resurface is inaccurate, and here's why:
1. No new format is being proposed
2. We're dealing with a form of DSP, again, not a new format
3. There are no indications of compatibility issues.

What is going to happen here is possible consumer confusion, and I think the analogy to MP3s is accurate. At worst, this could have the effect of turning BD into the HD equivalent of SACD/DVD-A. The proof is going to be in the results of Toshi's new technology and the price. If J6P and JWiaB say, "good enough," there will be no widespread adoption of BD as the next big thing and it will, at best, be a niche format akin to LD.

Not doomsaying, but saying wait and see.

TravisR · 06-04-2008, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H

What is going to happen here is possible consumer confusion...

I agree that that's possible. Hopefully, Blu Ray can pick up some steam this year, become more well known as the high definition format and stop this before it does become a source of confusion for the average consumer.

Scooter · 06-04-2008, 06:32 PM

It is absolutely known as the HD format.....

The variable is....is it worth the expense.

TravisR · 06-04-2008, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scooter

It is absolutely known as the HD format.....

The variable is....is it worth the expense.

Then if that's the case, Toshiba has quite an uphill battle to fight because they have to convince people that their 'new format' is as good as the Blu Ray discs that they've been hearing about or have seen.

In the end, this probably going to the way of DIVX or those True HD discs (or whatever Warner was going to call the discs with an HD-DVD side and a Blu Ray side), it'll fail before it gets started or fade away without much interest from the average consumer.