[Linksys 845c]

Hello All...

Was wondering if I could get some possible answers on whether or not I have my system set up correctly -- specifically the "relationship" between my Panasonic '10A Blu ray player and Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver...notably, the way these devices are "talking" to each other for transmission of PCM signals, etc...let me explain a bit better:

My Panasonic Blu ray deck is going HDMI OUT for audio AND video transmission (no other connections -- no analog, component, nothing) to the Onkyo's HDMI IN (1)...from there, a second HDMI cable is going from the Onkyo's HDMI OUT to my Sony KDS-50A2020 SXRD RPHDTV's HDMI IN...that's it -- there are no other connections in or out of the system, except for the speaker cables connecting my Polk surround speaker array from the receiver, of course...

Now, this Blu ray player is not only handling Blu ray playback duties in my theater, but standard DVD playback as well (the horrible DVD upconversion on this machine is a topic for another day), and so under the player's "Digital Audio Output" menu, I have selected all legacy Dolby/DTS tracks to be sent BITSTREAM (because this player can send those signals bitstreamed to my 605) and the new high resolution audio codecs like Dolby TrueHD I have set to "PCM" output because this player does NOT bitstream any of the new codecs it supports (Dolby Digital Plus, TrueHD and DTS-HD, NOT Master Audio) and instead decodes them internally to PCM and sends them out to a receiver like that...and so, under "TrueHD" I have that set to PCM...

The issue I'm wondering about is multi-fold...first of all, can Dolby and DTS legacy tracks be passed just fine over HDMI instead of coax or optical?

Now...the player also has a "Speaker Setting" menu under the setup which lets you select "2 Channel" or "Multi Channel"...I have found that after experimenting endlessly with these two selections (and of which the directions in the manual are COMPLETELY wrong on this issue -- don't ask) the "Multi Channel" selection is the correct one for passing decoded PCM tracks over HDMI in multi channel so my receiver can read them. But, also under this "Multi Channel" menu on the Panasonic player, there's a second menu that pops up and asks you to set speaker sizes, levels, delays, etc...now, this was all set inside my receiver already -- that is, calibrations, delays, speaker crossovers, etc...and I was under the assumption that this speaker setup menu on the Blu ray player was ONLY for if you're using the multichannel analog outputs, which I am not -- ONLY digital HDMI is what I'm running. So, do those speaker sizes, distances, etc. matter if I'm connected via HDMI and not analog? Do these need to be set in order for uncompressed and decoded PCM signals to pass correctly to my receiver? Some have said leave them at SMALL in terms of sizes (my speakers are all Polk bookshelves, so they're not large) and others have told me they all need to be set to LARGE in this menu so there's no "double crossover processing" going on between the player and receiver (or some such rhetoric)...I don't know what the correct answer is for this because even still, some say this doesn't matter at all because I'm connected with a DIGITAL HDMI output.

Once again, my speakers are all monitor sized Polk "R" series bookshelves with a powered PSW 10 sub; in my receiver, all calibrations have been made for these speakers including a 80Hz rolloff on all speakers...given this, do I need to set those speaker values in the PLAYER as well, in order to pass PCM tracks correctly? And do these speaker settings in the player affect the digital transmission of BITSTREAMED audio?

Should PCM DOWNCONVERSION be left OFF in the player? Could this be affecting the sound? To be honest, decoded TrueHD and uncompressed PCM tracks don't sound all that "great" when I select them off Blu ray discs; to my ear, legacy DTS and Dolby tracks on DVDs are much "punchier" with a much more intense sense of presence and weight; I just don't hear this out of the TrueHD or uncompressed PCM tracks...could something be set wrong in my player?

The manual for the Panny '10A says that by selecting "PCM" for audio output of digital codecs supported by the machine, this will make the player "downmix" the track to a 2-channel PCM mix -- but that's not what I want, as I want the full multichannel PCM mix from the disc...why would Panasonic say this is downmixing to a 2 channel mix if PCM is selected but yet I hear all five speakers working when I play these tracks back???

If someone can shed ANY insight on ANY of these issues, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you in advance!

[troy evans]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linksys 845c

The manual for the Panny '10A says that by selecting "PCM" for audio output of digital codecs supported by the machine, this will make the player "downmix" the track to a 2-channel PCM mix -- but that's not what I want, as I want the full multichannel PCM mix from the disc...why would Panasonic say this is downmixing to a 2 channel mix if PCM is selected but yet I hear all five speakers working when I play these tracks back???

If someone can shed ANY insight on ANY of these issues, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you in advance!

In this case it sounds like your receiver is giving you surround sound from a 2ch source. That happens when using Dolby Pro Logic settings and some others. This will need to be resolved in the receiver settings if it is troubling you to have the sound processed as surround even in stereo presentations. I leave my PCM downmix setting to off so it will have no effect what so ever on the AQ. I have had no issue with it affecting my sound with it off. I also run HDMI only connections.

[Linksys 845c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by troy evans

In this case it sounds like your receiver is giving you surround sound from a 2ch source. That happens when using Dolby Pro Logic settings and some others. This will need to be resolved in the receiver settings if it is troubling you to have the sound processed as surround even in stereo presentations. I leave my PCM downmix setting to off so it will have no effect what so ever on the AQ. I have had no issue with it affecting my sound with it off. I also run HDMI only connections.

Actually Troy, this is not what's happening I believe...see, if I switch to "2 Channel" on the PLAYER, then THAT sends a two channel mix to my receiver -- where Pro Logic II and the other DSPs appear to play back the soundtrack from the Blu ray in -- and that's not what I want, nor is it correct...the only way I can get multichannel PCM tracks from Blu rays to transfer properly from my player to receiver is to set the PLAYER to output MULTI CHANNEL on its "speaker output" selection, where then PCM tracks read "MULTICH" on my Onkyo's display screen, NOT Pro Logic II, etc...so that must be the correct way for PCM tracks to be played -- through the receiver's MULTICHANNEL mode...can someone confirm this?

Pro Logic II IS indeed used in my setup when 2 channel Dolby Surround tracks are sensed on DVDs; I have the default listening mode set to Dolby Pro Logic II Movie for when these tracks are played -- so I'm okay there...it's just the issue of multichannel PCM coming over HDMI...

Now, assuming that's correct -- my problem still lies in that SPEAKER SETUP MENU of the player, where it asks you to input speaker sizes, delays, etc...I need to know if this menu is affecting PCM tracks I'm playing from discs or if this doesn't make a difference because I'm connected through HDMI only...from what I have learned, these speaker settings in players only affect ANALOG output, but I'm not connected via analog, ONLY HDMI, so do these settings need to be made at the player for when I'm passing PCM multichannel tracks over to my receiver?

And "PCM DOWNCONVERSION" should be off, correct?

[Stephen Tu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linksys 845c

The issue I'm wondering about is multi-fold...first of all, can Dolby and DTS legacy tracks be passed just fine over HDMI instead of coax or optical?

Yes.

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But, also under this "Multi Channel" menu on the Panasonic player, there's a second menu that pops up and asks you to set speaker sizes, levels, delays, etc...now, this was all set inside my receiver already -- that is, calibrations, delays, speaker crossovers, etc...and I was under the assumption that this speaker setup menu on the Blu ray player was ONLY for if you're using the multichannel analog outputs, which I am not -- ONLY digital HDMI is what I'm running. So, do those speaker sizes, distances, etc. matter if I'm connected via HDMI and not analog?

They should affect both. Bass management is necessary in the player for people who's older receivers (not the 605) *don't* do bass management for multich HDMI/analog input. For the 605, setting the *player's* speaker settings to "large", with the *receiver's* settings to "small", does make sense since you want the player to pass the signal unmolested & let the receiver do the job of steering the bass to the subwoofer.

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And do these speaker settings in the player affect the digital transmission of BITSTREAMED audio?

No.

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Should PCM DOWNCONVERSION be left OFF in the player? Could this be affecting the sound? To be honest, decoded TrueHD and uncompressed PCM tracks don't sound all that "great" when I select them off Blu ray discs; to my ear, legacy DTS and Dolby tracks on DVDs are much "punchier" with a much more intense sense of presence and weight; I just don't hear this out of the TrueHD or uncompressed PCM tracks...could something be set wrong in my player?

There is a known bug in the LFE decoding of this player that causes the LFE channel to be too low on these tracks. Supposedly you can make a somewhat imperfect fix (bass from LFE still a bit low, but bass from other channels a bit too high) by bumping the sub channel level up 2-3 dB. Or just stick to legacy & avoid the issue. The benefits of lossless are overblown anyway in my view, the source mix itself is most important. Perceptual codecs do a good job & what you lose is rarely audible, that is what they are designed to do!

PCM Downconversion -- in this instance it is referring to sampling rate downconversion, e.g. 98kHz to 48/44.1 kHz sampling rate for those receivers that can't handle 98kHz, not multich->stereo conversion. I believe the references in the manual to only being able to output 2 ch PCM are because older versions of the firmware that could only decode to 2 chs, doesn't apply to current firmware.

[Linksys 845c]

First of all, Stephen, let me say thank you so VERY much for taking the time to answer me in detail...you have helped me a great deal. Let me reply to some of these suggestions...

They should affect both.

Okay...this is important, as I have been told the settings in the player don't or shouldn't affect HDMI because it's "digital"...

Bass management is necessary in the player for people who's older receivers (not the 605) *don't* do bass management for multich HDMI/analog input. For the 605, setting the *player's* speaker settings to "large", with the *receiver's* settings to "small", does make sense since you want the player to pass the signal unmolested & let the receiver do the job of steering the bass to the subwoofer.

Okay, and so you're part of the large majority that says the LARGE setting is correct on the player's setup -- I will leave these at LARGE, but can I ask you a couple of things regarding this? First of all, the manual for the '10A says something about the multichannel speaker settings having an output similar to "LARGE" when playing multichannel TrueHD mixes...and someone suggested on another site that no matter what you leave these speaker sizes set to in the player, the player will send it out as if LARGE is selected anyway...can this be the reason I don't really hear a difference whether the speakers are set to large or small in the player?

There is a known bug in the LFE decoding of this player that causes the LFE channel to be too low on these tracks. Supposedly you can make a somewhat imperfect fix (bass from LFE still a bit low, but bass from other channels a bit too high) by bumping the sub channel level up 2-3 dB. Or just stick to legacy & avoid the issue. The benefits of lossless are overblown anyway in my view, the source mix itself is most important. Perceptual codecs do a good job & what you lose is rarely audible, that is what they are designed to do!

I have heard about this LFE bug on this model; and that's EXACTLY what I'm experiencing with TrueHD and uncompressed PCM tracks coming into the Onkyo -- a reduced bass output and just "lack of punch"...I COMPLETELY AGREE that these "lossless" new codecs and formats are overhyped...to be honest, when A/Bing these tracks on a disc with legacy Dolby Digital mixes, I actually prefer the sound of the legacy lossy tracks better. I specifically bought the 605 so it could decode the new Master Audio/TrueHD tracks internally from a bitstreamed signal, but found out AFTER I bought the Panasonic that this player doesn't output the new codecs in bitstream form...so I'm forced to leave TrueHD output of the player to PCM so the player decodes it...but to be honest, as I have said, the tracks don't sound all that "mind blowing" to me -- especially not over a well-mixed DTS or Dolby track...

That leads me to some more questions for you, if you don't mind...by keeping the Panasonic on MULTI CHANNEL speaker output, when playing multichannel PCM tracks, my receiver and player do the HDMI handshake and then "MULTICH" reads on my Onkyo's display, with "HDMI/MULTICHANNEL/PCM" illuminated above it...is this the correct listening mode for these tracks? Under the Onkyo's setup menu for listening modes, for MULTICHANNEL PCM, the only mode choices are MULTICHANNEL or DIRECT...I was told not to use direct, so would Multichannel be the only mode to use for decoded TrueHD or uncompressed PCM tracks?

And do you think future Blu ray players should clear up this LFE bug? I suppose it wouldn't make a difference if I replace this player with one that bitstreams the new codecs, but if I did that, would I lose all these problems regarding PCM, loss of LFE, sizes, etc?

Thank you very very much again for all your help! Look forward to your reply.

PCM Downconversion -- in this instance it is referring to sampling rate downconversion, e.g. 98kHz to 48/44.1 kHz sampling rate for those receivers that can't handle 98kHz, not multich->stereo conversion. I believe the references in the manual to only being able to output 2 ch PCM are because older versions of the firmware that could only decode to 2 chs, doesn't apply to current firmware.

So should PCM Downconversion be on or off based on my system? I keep hearing "Definitely OFF!"
And what about BD Function Sound...should this be off too, as I have been told?

[Linksys 845c]

Oh...and also Stephen...

Why does the manual for this machine say by selecting "PCM" output for any of the codecs it supports, this sends a 2-channel mix of the track out? I have selected PCM for TrueHD output from this player, but it DOES send a full multichannel mix to my speakers as I can hear all of them working...what does Panasonic mean? Does this have anything to do with the fact that the speaker setting in the player is set to MULTICHANNEL?

[Stephen Tu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linksys 845c

can this be the reason I don't really hear a difference whether the speakers are set to large or small in the player?

You really wouldn't expect to hear much of a difference either way. If you set it to small, the player rolls off the bass in those channels and sends it to the sub, so the Onkyo doesn't have to anymore. If you use the same 80hz frequency crossover basically you are just creating a steeper rolloff effect. I would use "large" so that I could utilize the Onkyo's Audyssey equalization feature, which sometimes recommends different settings from 80hz so it can better tweak for effects of your room & the speaker's placement within it.

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That leads me to some more questions for you, if you don't mind...by keeping the Panasonic on MULTI CHANNEL speaker output, when playing multichannel PCM tracks, my receiver and player do the HDMI handshake and then "MULTICH" reads on my Onkyo's display, with "HDMI/MULTICHANNEL/PCM" illuminated above it...is this the correct listening mode for these tracks?

That's correct.

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And do you think future Blu ray players should clear up this LFE bug? I suppose it wouldn't make a difference if I replace this player with one that bitstreams the new codecs, but if I did that, would I lose all these problems regarding PCM, loss of LFE, sizes, etc?

They fixed it in the BD30 with firmware. If you are already beyond the return period, I'd just sit tight for a few years, wait for a cheap profile 2.0 player, full audio capabilities, and perhaps improved SD-DVD performance. Maybe if Oppo releases a player ...

I don't think it's worth a ton of effort for TrueHD etc., I only got my new receiver with TrueHD etc. because my ancient receiver had only 2 digital inputs & was Dolby Digital only which would have been useless with the HD-DVD I had which downconverted tracks to DTS but not DD.

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So should PCM Downconversion be on or off based on my system? I keep hearing "Definitely OFF!"

Off is correct.

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And what about BD Function Sound...should this be off too, as I have been told?

This is just the overlayed menu beeps etc.? It really shouldn't matter either way.

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Why does the manual for this machine say by selecting "PCM" output for any of the codecs it supports, this sends a 2-channel mix of the track out?

From my post above:
I believe the references in the manual to only being able to output 2 ch PCM are because of older versions of the firmware that could only decode to 2 chs, doesn't apply to current firmware.

[Linksys 845c]

You really wouldn't expect to hear much of a difference either way. If you set it to small, the player rolls off the bass in those channels and sends it to the sub, so the Onkyo doesn't have to anymore. If you use the same 80hz frequency crossover basically you are just creating a steeper rolloff effect. I would use "large" so that I could utilize the Onkyo's Audyssey equalization feature, which sometimes recommends different settings from 80hz so it can better tweak for effects of your room & the speaker's placement within it.

Well, I definitely don't want a steeper rolloff effect, and I wouldn't even know where to begin setting the speakers at IN THE PLAYER except for their sizes, so I'm not sure which one -- Large or Small -- is the correct setting...plus, I'm not using the Onkyo's Audyssey system because I'm not running the calibration from the au