[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

I apologize for rehashing this subject once again in a third thread -- please let me begin with saying that; if moderators wish to erase the other two threads regarding this issue, please do so and I will attempt to explain what I have been trying to here in this new one.....again, my apologies.

The reason for beginning this new thread on this subject is because I was beginning to lose focus and track of what I was getting replies on and the questions were not being answered as clearly as I thought they would be; and so, please bear with me here as I try to inquire of these issues because this is a major purchase for us financially right now, and it is important that I understand what I am purchasing.....

Onkyo, for one, is claiming that beginning with their new TX-SR605, the receivers in their lineup will be able to process and decode all new high definition audio codecs, including Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS Master Audio, etc.....yet, I have been told by Jeff and others on here that the new high definition disc players (HD DVD/Blu ray) --- UNLESS I understood this wrong (and please tell me if I did) --- are NOT passing these high-definition soundtracks to these HDMI-compatible receivers in the same fashion that typical Dolby Digital/DTS DVD soundtracks are passed to a "typical" receiver via optical or coax and sent bitstream.....that the tracks are actually decoded at the player itself as uncompressed PCM and then sent over the HDMI cable to the receiver like the TX-SR605; and here, I am all confused.....first of all, why is Onkyo's website (as an example) stating that their new receivers DECODE these new formats in digital form when now I am being told that the soundtracks are actually NOT being sent in a straight, raw form in HDMI to these receivers but being sent through a PCM signal? What are we actually HEARING then on these HD discs when they're passed on to one of these new receivers then via HDMI.....are we HEARING the Dolby Digital Plus track or is it some kind of PCM-converted passthrough thats going to the receiver? This is just confusing the heck out of me; I want to buy one of these new receivers, but I was under the impression that I could simply connect a Blu ray player with an HDMI cable JUST as I connected DVD players over the years with a simple coax or optical line to one of these new receivers, which would in turn be decoded AT these new receivers automatically (like traditional receivers would do, decoding DD, DTS, etc)......in other words, I was hoping that I could simply hook the Blu ray player to the Onkyo TX-SR605, select the language choice from a Blu ray movie (like Dolby Digital Plus, etc.) and then the receiver would simply auto-detect the track and decode it via the one HDMI cable.....is this NOT the way these new receivers work? If not, what are we actually HEARING when the soundtracks are being passed to the receiver as uncompressed PCM, etc? Is it the REAL lossless DD+/DTS HD, etc. audio?

I just am having a difficult time understanding what is going on here with these new receivers that claim they "decode" the new high definition audio formats -- yet I am being told that the audio tracks on the movie discs are not actually being PASSED that way....

And please tell me if I have this right: the connection from Blu ray player to receiver (a new one, like the Onkyo) would be HDMI out from the Blu ray player to the receiver's HDMI in.....and thats all that would be needed, right? Now, to pass high definition VIDEO to my TV, there would need to be a SECOND HDMI cable going from the receiver's HDMI out to the TV's in, yes? And then ALL HD audio and video would pass to the receiver AND TV?

One more thing: when playing standard definition DVDs on one of these high def disc players and they're being upconverted, do their Dolby Digital and DTS audio tracks simply pass over the HDMI connection to these new receivers as well for decoding?

If someone can please try to clear this up I would be greatly appreciative.....and again, please accept my apologies for trying again in a freshly-minted thread here.

Thank you fellow Home Theater Forum Friends.

[Jim Rondeau]

Hi Nick,

I understand your confusion as I was where you are now a few weeks back. It took me a while to grasp all the nuances of HD coming from a longtime SD background.

I think you have most everything you need to know covered in your post here and for the most part you are correct with your statements and assumptions. Just for clarification I will try to address your issues with the caveat that I'm sure there are others who could answer them better.

First lets tackle the issues of the new receivers with TrueHD/DTS-HD MA decoding. This had me very confused when I was first looking into HD as I thought you needed one of these receivers to listen to those audio tracks. I l learned that that is not the case as the players themselves decode these tracks and pass them over HDMI or 5.1 Analog outs to the receiver as PCM. Think of these new receivers with the built in decoding as being 'future proof' to an extent. If you remember when SD DVD first came out, most players decoded Dolby Digital. With the advent of newer receivers with the decoding built in, most SD DVD players have dropped these decoders and have the receiver handle it. The same will follow with HD DVD. The HD players will eventually just pass the signal to the receivers and have them decode the tracks. As was stated in previous threads, no current players can actually pass the TrueHD/DTS-HD MA tracks. Some new ones announced in the last couple weeks will be able too as (I assume) will most future HD players. In the end, whether the player or receiver is decoding the track, you are getting the exact same output.

You are correct with your assumption of how to connect the player-receiver-tv with HDMI. You will run an HDMI cable from the player to one of the HDMI inputs on your receiver. Then you will run an HDMI cable from the HDMI out of the receiver to your TV. The HDMI cable will handle both audio and video so it will be the only connection type needed. This connection will handle all your needs for both HD and SD material. On SD your DD or DTS track will be sent over the HDMI. Most players upconvert your SD video signal over HDMI so you receive that benefit also.

The only real decision left is which player to get. Both formats have their pros and cons. I will state that I have both so I am not biased to either. I started with a PS3 for Blu-ray as everything I read at the time pointed to Blu-ray being the eventual 'format war' winner. A week after I got the PS3 the Paramount/Dreamworks HD-DVD exclusive announcement was made. Instead of taking part in the war, I decided to go neutral and added a Toshiba HD-A2 HD-DVD player. I couldn't be happier with both of them. I also upgraded to a Yamaha RX-V661 as my previous receiver (Pioneer 1014-TX) didn't have HDMI. My current 65" RPTV doesn't have HDMI so I am running component for video as it will be a while before I can upgrade my TV.

Hope this helps!

[Jeff Gatie]

Nick, regardless if the receiver is doing the decoding or the player is doing the decoding, you will get the EXACT SAME AUDIO. These are (mostly) lossless formats, so aside from any dialog normalization or other processing, the sound is exactly the same. Don't get too confused, it really is nothing to worry about. The only difference you will hear/see is the Onkyo will say "Multichannel" instead of "DD" or "DTS". When the players are released that pass the audio as bitstream, then your Onkyo will do the decoding.

Please note though (and this may be the reason for the player doing the decoding in the first place) BD and HD DVD are able to mix interactive content in with the main film, both video and audio, without resorting to another, separate, version of the film/soundtrack. Formerly, if you wanted a commentary, you had to record a separate version of the soundtrack. If you wanted a pip commentary, you had to render another version of the video. Now they can just mix the commentary (and other effects) in with the original soundtrack/film. Needless to say, this is easy with the player decoding the tracks, it just decodes and then mixes them together. With the receiver doing the decoding, these features may have to be disabled. But it really doesn't matter because you can always just keep the decoding in the player and you'll never hear anything different.

[Jim Rankin]

Thanks Nick, Jim and Jeff. I myself have been trying to understand how this works as well and I think I have it now.

I currently have a 42" Sony Grand Vega which only has a DVI input - so there really is nothing to worry about at the time until I upgrade my television with HDMI. The only way I can pass the audio is to run optical from my A2 to my receiver - but I know it doesn't decode the newer audio formats.

Maybe the wife would be interested in a 42" Grand Vega in our family room?

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

I understand your confusion as I was where you are now a few weeks back. It took me a while to grasp all the nuances of HD coming from a longtime SD background.

I think you have most everything you need to know covered in your post here and for the most part you are correct with your statements and assumptions. Just for clarification I will try to address your issues with the caveat that I'm sure there are others who could answer them better.

Jim,

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain and share some of your experiences and insight with me as I can relate being a fellow standard DVD fanatic prior to this high definition launch; let me address some of your comments below so I can try and get a better handle on this....

First lets tackle the issues of the new receivers with TrueHD/DTS-HD MA decoding. This had me very confused when I was first looking into HD as I thought you needed one of these receivers to listen to those audio tracks. I l learned that that is not the case as the players themselves decode these tracks and pass them over HDMI or 5.1 Analog outs to the receiver as PCM.

Indeed; this was the exact same thing I was lead to believe by going onto Onkyo's website and reading what their marketing materials said about their new receiver line ACTUALLY DECODING these new formats AT the receiver itself; then, I learn that the tracks are actually being passed as PCM (which should, from previous experience I had, sound louder and more "forceful" than compressed DD and DTS) and this concerned me because the only reason I had for purchasing a new receiver at this point was that I thought the connection would be as simple as it was for standard DVD audio transfer --- that is, coax or optical connection from DVD player to receiver for automatic decoding at the receiver. If these new models do not do this right now, what would be the point beyond future proofing of buying one of these new receivers when I can just keep the Onkyo TX-SR600 I have now and running the analog outs from a new Blu ray player to the 'SR600's analog ins to get the high def sound? Can you see my point?

Think of these new receivers with the built in decoding as being 'future proof' to an extent. If you remember when SD DVD first came out, most players decoded Dolby Digital. With the advent of newer receivers with the decoding built in, most SD DVD players have dropped these decoders and have the receiver handle it.

Yes indeed I remember it; however there are quite a few standard DVD decks still on the market that decode the DD and DTS tracks internally.....regardless, the concern I have now is that I wanted to be able to buy a Blu ray player and new receiver, connect them via HDMI, and be able to hear these new tracks in all their lossless, uncompressed (well, some as less compressed) glory....I dont understand how all this is working now, especially since Onkyo had me believing that their new receivers actually decode the new formats RIGHT NOW with the players that are out.....are you telling me that I would have to buy, say, a 500 to 800-dollar Blu ray player now and then repurchase one in a few months just so the new machine passes the pure DD+, TrueHD, Master Audio, etc. tracks via HDMI to the receiver? This is simply not possible financially for me....

The same will follow with HD DVD. The HD players will eventually just pass the signal to the receivers and have them decode the tracks.

And so if I were to buy a Blu ray player right now and hook it up to say Onkyo's TX-SR605, I would not be passing the audio tracks on these Blu ray discs in a "pure" kind of form for the receiver to decode it?

As was stated in previous threads, no current players can actually pass the TrueHD/DTS-HD MA tracks.

So, people like me would have to wait and REBUY a Blu ray player that would pass the actual tracks just because the current ones dont "talk" with the new receivers correctly? What are we actually HEARING or EXPERIENCING then when the HDMI connection between the Blu ray deck and receiver is passing these tracks as a PCM signal --- the track is exactly the same?

Some new ones announced in the last couple weeks will be able too as (I assume) will most future HD players. In the end, whether the player or receiver is decoding the track, you are getting the exact same output.


But as I stated before, the whole reason I was looking into buying a NEW Blu ray player and a NEW receiver was so that the two could interconnect as easily as a standard DVD player did with older receivers via a coax or optical audio connection...does that make any sense? Now, if the Blu ray player is going to be decoding the audio tracks internally and simply passing it to the Onkyo receiver as multichannel output, shouldnt I just keep the Onkyo TX-SR600 I have now and run analog connections between the player and that older receiver for that matter?

You are correct with your assumption of how to connect the player-receiver-tv with HDMI. You will run an HDMI cable from the player to one of the HDMI inputs on your receiver. Then you will run an HDMI cable from the HDMI out of the receiver to your TV.

Thank you for clarifying this for me; and so two HDMI cables would be needed. With regard to the HDMI input that will be coming from the Blu ray disc player into the receiver: would this simply be, say, "HDMI 1" or would it still be a standard "DVD" input like before when watching a disc? And then the video gets transferred from there into the TV?

The HDMI cable will handle both audio and video so it will be the only connection type needed. This connection will handle all your needs for both HD and SD material. On SD your DD or DTS track will be sent over the HDMI. Most players upconvert your SD video signal over HDMI so you receive that benefit also.

Okay, thank you for clarifying this for me as well; I was wondering what happened with DVD's standard DD and DTS tracks as they are passed over HDMI....so the HDMI cable DOES indeed handle Dolby Digital and DTS in bitstream form for passing to the receiver?

The only real decision left is which player to get. Both formats have their pros and cons. I will state that I have both so I am not biased to either. I started with a PS3 for Blu-ray as everything I read at the time pointed to Blu-ray being the eventual 'format war' winner. A week after I got the PS3 the Paramount/Dreamworks HD-DVD exclusive announcement was made. Instead of taking part in the war, I decided to go neutral and added a Toshiba HD-A2 HD-DVD player. I couldn't be happier with both of them. I also upgraded to a Yamaha RX-V661 as my previous receiver (Pioneer 1014-TX) didn't have HDMI. My current 65" RPTV doesn't have HDMI so I am running component for video as it will be a while before I can upgrade my TV.

Hope this helps!

Indeed it did help in many ways; I am still torn on which format to buy into and that is why I wanted to go with the LG combo player...but folks on here gave me their opinions on that unit and its a bit overpriced and out of our budget.....plus, the better half wants to give Blu ray a chance so, that will probably be the winner for us.

If you can get back to me regarding some more of the questions I had on your replies, I would appreciate it when you have spare time. Thanks again for your help!

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

Nick, regardless if the receiver is doing the decoding or the player is doing the decoding, you will get the EXACT SAME AUDIO. These are (mostly) lossless formats, so aside from any dialog normalization or other processing, the sound is exactly the same. Don't get too confused, it really is nothing to worry about. The only difference you will hear/see is the Onkyo will say "Multichannel" instead of "DD" or "DTS". When the players are released that pass the audio as bitstream, then your Onkyo will do the decoding.


Jeff,

Thank you for your continued assistance with this....now see, here is my point: if ALL the players right now are NOT passing the new audio formats over HDMI as bitstream, why would I need to buy a new receiver instead of just using my current one and using the analog interface? In the end, both ways would make the display of both receivers read "Multichannel" on the display, follow? So what would be the benefit of buying a new receiver just to have the audio pass as PCM instead of analog?

Please note though (and this may be the reason for the player doing the decoding in the first place) BD and HD DVD are able to mix interactive content in with the main film, both video and audio, without resorting to another, separate, version of the film/soundtrack. Formerly, if you wanted a commentary, you had to record a separate version of the soundtrack. If you wanted a pip commentary, you had to render another version of the video. Now they can just mix the commentary (and other effects) in with the original soundtrack/film. Needless to say, this is easy with the player decoding the tracks, it just decodes and then mixes them together. With the receiver doing the decoding, these features may have to be disabled. But it really doesn't matter because you can always just keep the decoding in the player and you'll never hear anything different.

While Im not exactly sure how these features work, I am not really caught up in the whole features thing for interactive benefits of these discs; I simply want to experience these new high definition audio tracks the best and most direct way possible.

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Rankin

Thanks Nick, Jim and Jeff. I myself have been trying to understand how this works as well and I think I have it now.

I currently have a 42" Sony Grand Vega which only has a DVI input - so there really is nothing to worry about at the time until I upgrade my television with HDMI. The only way I can pass the audio is to run optical from my A2 to my receiver - but I know it doesn't decode the newer audio formats.

Maybe the wife would be interested in a 42" Grand Vega in our family room?

So according to Jim, optical audio out does not support the new high definition formats?

[Jeff Gatie]

Nick, one more time - Multichannel PCM is what the HD formats are decoded to by the player or the receiver. No matter which device does the decoding, the result will sound EXACTLY THE SAME!!!! There is no reason to purchase the Onkyo 605 except (1) to handle the HDMI audio which is required to pass Multichannel PCM if you do not use the 5.1 analogs and (2) futureproofing.

Multichannel PCM cannot be passed via optical or coax, you have to use HDMI or analog 5.1's.

So again - To take advantage of the new HD audio formats you need:

1) A Blu-Ray or HD DVD player that is capable of processing the HD audio (not all Blu-Rays can do it, all HD DVD's can, except no current player will process DTS.HD Master Audio)

2) An A/V receiver that has at least 5.1 analog outs (requires the player to have 5.1 audio outs, not all do).

- or -

3) An A/V receiver that handles HDMI audio.

For future proofing only, you can buy an a/v receiver that decodes the new HD audio formats. A receiver like this will take care of everything above and anything in the future.

That's it, that's all you need to know. It's simple, really.

[mastermaybe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie

Nick, one more time - Multichannel PCM is what the HD formats are decoded to by the player or the receiver. No matter which device does the decoding, the result will sound EXACTLY THE SAME!!!! There is no reason to purchase the Onkyo 605 except (1) to handle the HDMI audio which is required to pass Multichannel PCM if you do not use the 5.1 analogs and (2) futureproofing.

Multichannel PCM cannot be passed via optical or coax, you have to use HDMI or analog 5.1's.

So again - To take advantage of the new HD audio formats you need:

1) A Blu-Ray or HD DVD player that is capable of processing the HD audio (not all Blu-Rays can do it, all HD DVD's can, except no current player will process DTS.HD Master Audio)

2) An A/V receiver that has at least 5.1 analog outs (requires the player to have 5.1 audio outs, not all do).

- or -

3) An A/V receiver that handles HDMI audio.

For future proofing only, you can buy an a/v receiver that decodes the new HD audio formats. A receiver like this will take care of everything above and anything in the future.

That's it, that's all you need to know. It's simple, really.

great explanantion jeff. Please have faith that i understand your synopsis when i ask you this question: Ok, so lets assume i have a new hddvd player that handles the new hd codecs. Second, I also purchased a new receiver that DOES NOT have the processing, but DOES have 1.3 HDMI. Good so far? Ok. So when i pop in a dvd thats TRUE HD for example, how will my receveiver recognize the TRUE HD? Will it at all? I'm assuming that it will read dolby digital even though it will TRULY be TRUEHD? tell me if this ? misses the mark completely?!