Advanced Audio Codecs via HDMI only? - Page 2

DaViD Boulet · 01-08-2007, 01:13 AM

Without the ability to do a direct a/b comparison to the unmodified signal, it would be difficult to ascribe criticism to a given soundtrack. As I already stated, even a "processed" lossless signal would sound better than a lossy-compressed signal.

My agenda is only to promote high-end audiophile playback of lossless tracks. Read the many comments I've made at AVS on the subject if you need to get a better picture of my objectivity about this issue. This isn't a bash against HD DVD. I've already made it very clear in my posts here in this thread and at AVS that were a hardware manufacturer, like Toshiba, to produce a player that allows an audiophile listener to bypass unwanted processing, that this would negate any and all problems and make this issue moot. If BD players engaged the same kind of non-audiophile processing in their players I'd be making the same comment about them as well. I think I've posted enough about the need to get advanced audio decoding in BD players to make it clear that I'm able to comment about shortcomings with any playback hardware regarless of format.

RAF · 01-08-2007, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Crawford

RAF,
The BRD of Lady in the Water doesn't have TrueHD on it.

Also, I played around with the HD DVD of Batman Begins and the TrueHD audio did not have lower volume than the DD Plus audio track on the XA2. However, if you activated the Dialog Enhancement feature, the TrueHD volume decreases in comparison to the DD+. According to the manual the Dialog Enhancement function is effective only in playback of HD DVD or DVD video discs recorded in DD or DD Plus.

Crawdaddy

Crawdaddy,

BINGO!

Problem solved (no thanks to a rather obscure XA-1 manual.) I switched off the "Dialog Enhancement" on my Toshiba HD-DVD player and, as you stated, the TrueHD audio track now is very close in volume to the other sound tracks.

When I originally got my XA-1 (before I even had TrueHD capabilities hooked up) I had switched on the Dialog Enhancement (or it may have been the default - I don't recall) because it promised that it "increases dialog volume of a DVD video disc playback" (something that appealed to me for certain movie situations.) Nowhere did the manual state that it would adversely affect the output volume of TrueHD nor would I have expected this to be the case. How did you stumble across this fact? Trial and error? Or does the XA-2 manual make this much clearer than the 1st generation manual?

Based on this additional information I can now state that it's a relief to find out that it's not the "spec" of HD-DVD that is causing the problem, but rather a setting on the Toshiba setup menu that is easily correctable by switching it off. I am happy to report that TrueHD on both my HD-DVD player and my Blu-ray player are comparable and both are an audible delight. I thank you for pointing this out to me.

Cees Alons · 01-08-2007, 03:10 AM

Great news indeed.

As I already said in my post #28, the manual certainly isn't clear about that (it says this setting affects the 2ch only), but then again, TrueHD other than through 2ch didn't exist on this player when the manual was printed.
"True" TrueHD came only to be with the latest firmware upgrade (start of sep 2006).

Crawdaddy, thanks!
And it looks like the "basic" problem doesn't exist after all. I'm glad we found this out now, so we know it's not a problem with the HD DVD format itself.

David, I assume this takes away your fears about the TrueHD processing?

Cees

DaViD Boulet · 01-08-2007, 08:36 AM

The issue of dialogue-enhancement is only one of about a dozen "processing" issues... many of which are employed by defacto-behavior of the chip in the Toshiba and cannot be undone with advanced-authored discs, hence data-recalculations that go on inside the Toshiba player that can potentially harm the sound quality of the LPCM extraction (with both lossless and lossy tracks) which would be best to allow the user to completely bypass from an audiophile perspective, just as this dialogue-enhancement allowed for bypass.

Much of this is discussed in detail over at AVS and Amir from MS and even Roger Dressler from Dolby has contributed some good info. In other words... more to the story than just the dialoge enhancement thing (which itself was never cited by any source as one of the mandatory processing issues... glad to see it is indeed not!). It is very good news that this particular issue is what was behind the severe level-drop in output that RAH experienced and has been remedied by such a simple menu click! Definitely something to keep on everyone's radar so other users don't experience the same problem needlessly.

I think that the PS3 also has a similar situation where it's defaulting internally to some sort of setting for Dolby Digital playback, but instead of dropping output level it's compressing dynamic range... and unless users are savvy enough to know about it they just get stuck with a somewhat compromised-sounding result (one reason why early reports of the PS3 stated that the DTS output sounded noticably better than the Dolby Digital). I think a future firmware update is supposed to fix that on the PS3.

dave

Jack Gilvey · 01-08-2007, 09:02 AM

Quote:

As far as the second generation HD DVD player, I received my XA-2 yesterday, but only had time to play the "Superman Returns" HD DVD from beginning to end and I must say it's the most impressive audio track I have ever heard. Also, make sure that when you're listening to TrueHD, you have the Dialog Enhancement set to "off" on the player.

Anyone try this with an A2? Low TrueHD audio via HDMI is a known issue with it. I have one, but no HDMI.

DaViD Boulet · 01-08-2007, 01:43 PM

Hey,

check out what Dan Ramer at dvdfile has to say about the analog output of the advanced audio of both the Toshiba HD DVD and Sony BD player (same problem on both):

http://www.dvdfile.com/index.php?opt...k=view&id=5849

I run optical out in my system from my ps3 so I can't comment. Have any of you experienced anything like that when running analog out with your audio?

Tim Glover · 01-08-2007, 03:22 PM

Glad you fixed the problem RAF!

Enjoy....

RAF · 01-08-2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Hey,

check out what Dan Ramer at dvdfile has to say about the analog output of the advanced audio of both the Toshiba HD DVD and Sony BD player (same problem on both):

http://www.dvdfile.com/index.php?opt...k=view&id=5849

I run optical out in my system from my ps3 so I can't comment. Have any of you experienced anything like that when running analog out with your audio?

I'm only running HDMI out from both of my HD players (the Toshiba XA-1 HD-DVD player and the Sony PS3 Blu-ray unit) so I can't comment about any such "issues." It has been my experience in the past that there are so many factors involved when using analog output from digital sources (D/A conversion, etc. etc.) that the culprit could be a number of different things and it would be hard to say for sure without using exactly the same equipment as the writer of that piece.

However, since I am using HDMI and (thanks to Crawdaddy's help in pointing out that "Dialog Enhancement ON" is a no-no when using TrueHD output from a Toshiba player) I can state with authority that the TrueHD lossless audio from either format is a major step up from regular 5.1 and sounds spectacular regardless of format used (HD or BR). Choose either one and you will be rewarded.

Which brings up another question, DaViD. I was a bit surprised that you mentioned that you run optical out from your PS3. I was under the impression that you used HDMI for the audio aspects since you spoke with such authority about TrueHD. As such a supporter of lossless audio are you listening to the lossless sound fields of Blu-ray? And, probably more importantly, you didn't mention anything about having a HD-DVD player connected in your system. Do you have one, and if so, do you listen to lossless audio on that system as well? You were so quick to attribute my problems with TrueHD audio on the Toshiba to limitations of the "HD-DVD spec" that I naturally assumed that you had first hand knowledge of the problem as a HD-DVD lossless audio user. When Crawdaddy pointed out to me that the flaw was with my setting up the Toshiba with Dialog Enhancement turned "ON" the problem was resolved immediately I assumed that you would be able to verify this with your setup as well. But upon further reflection I'm not so sure of this. Are all of these "problems" you are having with HD-DVD based on personal experiences or is this an example of book learning? I didn't quite understand how your on-going arguments with Amir, et. al. over on AVS had anything to do with HD-DVD TrueHD volume issues and now that this has proven to be a menu setting problem and not a "spec" problem a lot of the bite has been taken out of your argument. Can you clarify this situation for me since I seem to be missing something? I don't wish to make any further assumptions without gathering as many facts as possible. Thank you.

MarekM · 01-08-2007, 05:18 PM

Hi there RAF

I am in similair position now.... runing Toshiba with only analog outputs for audio.... unfortunatelly no HDMI receiver yet

soon to plug in PS3 or other blu-ray player... and I am HUNTING some nice receiver somewhere from $800-$1500 with LPCM 7.1 thru HDMI, and no LFE issue..... after at least of month of search with help a lot of people, I am still without receiver hmm

yup, I can wait for hdmi1.3 receiver, but my old yamaha is almost at the end of it's life.... and I am not sure if I can be without receiver for 6 or more months

I read so many threads here and at avs, that my HEAD IS GOING TO BLOW

Marek

DaViD Boulet · 01-08-2007, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Which brings up another question, DaViD. I was a bit surprised that you mentioned that you run optical out from your PS3. I was under the impression that you used HDMI for the audio aspects since you spoke with such authority about TrueHD.

Sadly, I don't have HDMI on my reciever so I'm forced at present to run lossy over SPDIF though I do listen to LPCM in 2.0 mode over SPDIF as it still sounds better than lossy DD or DTS!<