A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

RAF · 10-21-2006, 08:47 AM

One thing that CEDIA 2006 drove home, at least to me, was that digital video, and all the products that embrace it, is creating a situation where for many home theater enthusiasts a dedicated video processor might be a viable option. I've written an article that addresses this issue and which, I believe, is a subject that is worth discussing. It actually spans several hardware areas of the forum (receivers, displays, etc.).

The link to my article is located HERE. Feel free to discuss this issue in this thread.

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Steven Simon · 10-21-2006, 10:49 AM

RAF,

Let me be the first to say thank you very much for your contributions to HTF and Home Theater in general. You truely are a wealth of info, and I respect you more than you know...

RAF · 10-22-2006, 10:51 AM

Thank you, Steve. In my opinion, external video processors are going to be the next "component" that a lot of people with Home Theaters are going to be considering (they are nothing new to power video users). With digital video already here and such a wide range of video resolutions out there on the new displays this is inevitable. And my article was written to try to bring more members up to speed on this sometimes confusing topic in a way that shows where these devices fit into the HT equation.

The article also gives me something to refer people to whenever video processing comes up in a lot of different threads here and elsewhere without having to repeat myself in each thread. This will, I estimate, be a terrific time saver for me so it was worth the effort.

Enjoy!

Steven Simon · 10-22-2006, 08:39 PM

Currently here is my gear, tell me if it makes sense to consider a VP.

Pioneer 50 Inch Plasma 1080i max Rez. DVI Input and Component Only
Pioneer Blue Ray Outputs HDMI Converted to DVI for the Plasma.
HD DVD Same Config...
HD Cable PVR from Cabelvision....

All the video sources are run to my Outlaw 990 PrePro, 2 DVI(High Def DVD), and Component for Cable....

Thoughts??

RAF · 10-23-2006, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarthSimon

Currently here is my gear, tell me if it makes sense to consider a VP.

Pioneer 50 Inch Plasma 1080i max Rez. DVI Input and Component Only
Pioneer Blue Ray Outputs HDMI Converted to DVI for the Plasma.
HD DVD Same Config...
HD Cable PVR from Cabelvision....

All the video sources are run to my Outlaw 990 PrePro, 2 DVI(High Def DVD), and Component for Cable....

Thougts??

Good question, Steve, and one that I would think a lot of people in your situation would be asking (even with different equipment.) The two things you have to ask yourself are:

1. Do my sources allow for output of the digital native resolution of the media? (In other words, does your SD DVD player offer 480i output over HDMI/DVI, and does your HD-DVD or Blu-ray player offer digital output of 1080p?)

2. Does my display offer an input that matches its maximum display resolution? (In other words, does your 1080i display accept 1080i digital input or does your 1080p display - I note you don't have one yet - offer a 1080p digital input?)

If the answer to both questions is "Yes" then you are a prime candidate to start thinking about an external video processor. This is because these processors work best if they are able to start with the native source material on the media, perform their digital magic, and then provide their output directly to your display with no further processing by the display. If the answer to one or both of the questions is "No" then I would probably wait until the next time you are thinking of upgrading some of your components since the video signal you will be processing is already processed by the player(s) and the display will modify any output from the video processor. Some processors like the DVDO VP50 have (or will have shortly) the ability to "undo" some processed signals (like changing 480p back to 480i with SD DVD player output, which is termed "re-interlacing") because this usually results in a superior image if they start with 480i, but that's something best avoided if possible.

Based on your equipment list I would suggest that you wait a bit since you can't get the maximum effect of an external video processor right now (i.e. it's not cost effective even though the image would probably be slightly better.) However, knowing you I assume that you will sooner than later own a 1080p display and, at that time, make sure you get one with a 1080p input. Also, when you are ready to upgrade to your next pre/pro or receiver you will be tempted to go with the flagship model of whatever brand you choose (the one that includes video processing - more and more companies, like Denon and Anthem, etc. are doing just that at a price premium). That would be the perfect time to consider purchasing an external video processor rather than shelling out the big bucks for a pre/pro or receiver that forces you into accepting the video processing continued within (because you are stuck with that processing as technology evolves unless you want to replace the whole pre/pro or receiver). The same rationale works for source players. No need for an "upscaling" DVD player if the external video processor does the upscaling even better than the player (and is upgradeable as well!).

If you followed the scenario I presented in my article you will see that you can avoid paying extra for the "top of the line" players and receivers as long as you put your video processing dollars into a good external video processor. The net result is as good or probably a better picture for the same money or less, and the added benefit of flexible upgrading at minimal cost. I would suggest that you start thinking about building your next set of components around a video processor like I'm doing. And any one else out there reading this can make their own assessment of what they currently have and what they want for the future. There is no set answer for everybody.

Hope this helps.

Adam Gregorich · 10-24-2006, 10:26 AM

FYI PREP will be included on the next DVDO firmware update due in 4-6 weeks.

RAF · 10-24-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich

FYI PReP will be included on the next DVDO firmware update due in 4-6 weeks.

Thank you, Adam.

And for those perhaps not DVDO acronym savvy, PReP refers to the "re-interlacing" of deinterlaced signals.

PReP stands for "Progressive ReProcessing of 480p, 576p and 1080p sources (into their interlaced counterparts).

Parker Clack · 10-24-2006, 05:51 PM

RAF:

So what if you have an HTPC that you run your DVD and video out to your RPTV that is 1080i and has HDMI inputs? Does the HTPC provide the scaling for you?

Parker

RAF · 10-24-2006, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parker Clack

RAF:

So what if you have an HTPC that you run your DVD and video out to your RPTV that is 1080i and has HDMI inputs? Does the HTPC provide the scaling for you?

Parker

Good question, Parker. While I'm not an HTPC expert by any means, I've used them a bit in the past (mostly to provide some 1080p input to my 1080p capable HP DLP set before other 1080p sources (HD discs) became available. For a more definitive answer I would hope that some of our HTPC "power users" would chime in here with additional information or to correct me if I'm wrong.

That said, one of the nice things about HTPCs is that they are capable (usually through software - as I did in my experience) of outputting a wide range of display resolutions. This is usually limited by the capability of the video output card in the HTPC. Remember, the video material on SD DVDs is contained in 480i format and in HD DVDs (either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray) is native 1080p. The Windows Media Video (WMV) HD files that are available either from Internet Downloads (or on commercially available WMV HD DVDs) are usually 1080p (1980 x 1080) with some being 720p (1280 x 720). The important thing to note is that if you configure your HTPC to output anything other than the native resolution on the disc (be it 480i, 720p, 1080p or anything else) then yes, video processing is being done by the PC.

The ideal thing would be, assuming you wish to use an external video processor, to have the HTPC pass through the actual resolution on the DVD being played so that all processing is in the hands of the video processor. The reason that I say this is that any of the major video processors out there (Lumagen, DVDO and a handful of others) is bound to have more sophisticated video processing circuitry than the vast majority of video cards in HTPC (unless there are some cards out there that I'm not familiar with - and I'd venture to say that those cards would be priced much higher than what one usually spends for a video card in the average HTPC.) Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the video cards in PCs to say for sure that they have such a "pass-through" mode so I can't give you a definitive answer in this regard. Remember, just because a card may output 480i at your command from an SD DVD (480i native) doesn't mean that the video signal didn't go through some processing before reaching the outside world. If one chooses to add an external video processor to his or her HT system then using and HTPC would be overkill as a DVD source. There are players that output SD DVD 480i over digital for under $150 (The OPPO 970, for example) and even an HD source player would be less expensive than maintaining an HTPC as the primary source for video into an external processor.

So the answer to your question is yes, the HTPC normally provides the scaling. And whether or not you can bypass this scaling might be important if you want to use an HTPC in the scenario I propose. Most of my presentation is directed at people using video sources other than HTPCs (DVD players, Cable and Satellite boxes, etc.) but that doesn't exclude HTPCs from the mix if that's your choice. It's just an expensive choice given the conditions.

Two other thoughts occurred to me while responding here.

The upcoming PReP feature on the DVDO iScan VP50 might be able to restructure any output from an HTPC to possibly increase the quality of the final picture.

Keep in mind that my comments are for any quality video processor, not just the DVDO products. I keep mentioning the VP50 because that's the unit I'm most familiar with (and its sibling, the VP30) but most of what I say also applies to products from Lumagen, Crystalio, Runco, Teranex and a host of others. Be aware that some processors carry eye-opening (like in "expensive") price tags compared to the more affordable DVDO and Lumagen, et. al.) This is something that requires research on the part of those serious about using an external VP.

ChristopherDAC · 10-24-2006, 08:32 PM

I believe that most who use a HTPC in a high-end setup use it precisely as a video processor. With the enormous processing power available in today's home computers, it's possible to equal or better the performance of the dedicated DSP components and routines typically found in separate video processors, with a great degree of flexibility and controllability. With the appropriate adaptor cards, the PC can accept video from external sources and apply all kinds of processing, while for DVDs played onboards it has the advantage of being able to operate on the MPEG stream in its native form, depending always on the software used.

I think the question becomes whether one has what I will call the engineering background, as well as the willingness and interest, to choose and assemble the parts for such a computer-based processor, and set it up and tweak it for best performance, instead of buying an "off-the-shelf" processor. Mind you, I don't think the above description applies at all the the majority of "HTPCs", which are boxes running Windows XP Media Center Edition, used by their owners for word-processing, Internet, games, and occasionally as a substitute for a TiVo.