A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about - Page 3

Robert Crawford · 11-02-2006, 02:58 PM

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Remember, I'm not getting the 2930ci for its 480i HDMI output (although that's a welcome benefit). I'm getting it because it solves my SACD/DVD-A "wire cram" problem. My current SD player (a Denon 2900) doesn't have HDMI. But more importantly, you can only play SACD/DVD-A on the 2900 via the analog 5.1 outputs. The 2930ci introduces DENONLINK III (which interfaces with the Denon 3806 receiver). This eliminates the need for any other audio connection between the player and the receiver (all media, including full 5.1 SACD and DVD-A) and frees up the analog inputs (now 7.1 compared to the Lexicon's 5.1) to handle HD sound codecs from capable HD players. Also, since I'm using Denonlink to play SACD/DVD-A I need not concern myself with what version of HDMI I'm using (Denonlink III added SACD to DVD-A support) in my receiver. The advanced HD codecs will come in through the 7.1 analog inputs for now (or PCM over S/PDIF). I'll worry about HDMI 1.3 (and replace my pre/pro) when 1.3 is available on a lot of sources and pre-pro/receivers. That's probably a year or two away.

RAF · 11-03-2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Crawford

Which is why I reference advance audio in my post because I never got into SACD/DVD-A, but I know you're into it. Anyhow, you and Adam have answered my question so I'll just wait for the update instead of buying another player that I think is unnecessary as far as my setup and viewing capacity.
Crawdaddy

Understood. I think that's a good decision for your situation.

Robert Crawford · 11-07-2006, 09:30 AM

RAF,
Have you hooked up your new toy yet? I have, but I'm still experiencing some HDMI handshake problems between the VP50 and my audio processor. I have everything working right now, but HDMI can be a royal pain in the butt.

Crawdaddy

Adam Gregorich · 11-07-2006, 02:48 PM

CD-
What happens when you hook up the source directly to the VP50? Is it only when you loop it through the audio processor that you have the problem?

Robert Crawford · 11-07-2006, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich

CD-
What happens when you hook up the source directly to the VP50? Is it only when you loop it through the audio processor that you have the problem?

That's how I first figured out I had a problem, going from the source to VP50 to the audio processor and then to television. I then bypassed the audio processor all together and went without sound from the source to the VP50 then to the television, no HDMI problems whatsoever. At this time, I go from the source to the processor then to the VP50 and finally to the television. That way, I have the processor as a throughput component before the VP50.

Edit: I am still experiencing some HDMI errors with my latest confirguration, in particular, the HD DVD player. I keep getting HDCP errors on the audio processor, thus, it stops play on the HD DVD player due to the HDMI signal being interrupted. I'm having far less errors with the Samsung. I'm still experimenting and will continue to do so until I solve this problem.

Crawdaddy

RAF · 11-08-2006, 10:52 AM

Crawdaddy,

Yes, I switched out my VP30 and put the VP50 into my system a few days ago. However, I don't have my HDMI compatible audio processor yet (it should be here in a week or two) so I can't comment on any HDMI issues between it and my VP50. When I get it (the Denon 3806) I'll let you know if there are any HDMI issues.

I can comment on a couple of other things. My Toshiba XA1 HD-DVD player exhibits the same behavior as yours does. If you remove the HDMI output path from the Toshiba (like by switching the source you send to the display on the VP50 to a source other than the Toshiba) then the HD-DVD player stops when it no longer senses an HDMI pathway. This has nothing to do with the way that the VP50 is handling HDMI and is due entirely to the player itself. I verified this at CEDIA with industry people from both Toshiba and HDMI. And it's quite frustrating because if you don't bookmark the spot on the HD-DVD you were watching before you switch (like to check the status of a Football game) then you have to go through the trouble of finding the point on the HD-DVD you left off. This can be a royal pain and just another thing that I don't like about Toshiba's first generation HD-DVD implementation (but that's a topic for another thread.) Since your Samsung Blu-ray player has fewer problems I can only surmise that this is because the Samsung follows the HDMI guidelines more closely (and this is has absolutely nothing to do with HD-DVD/Blu-ray parameters in case anyone is curious).

I've heard some horror stories about HDMI and audio processors (which one do you have, by the way, and how old is it?) and the great majority of these issues have to do with the audio processor not complying with HDMI guidelines (or only partially implementing them). Like I said, my Lexicon MC-8 doesn't have any HDMI video inputs or outputs so I can't actually talk about this yet based on experience. (I currently am sending all video directly to the VP50 and it works fine (except for things caused by components like the XA-1). But I'll let you know as soon as the new equipment is in my system. Adam went to a seminar where a lot was said about HDMI "compatible" versus HDMI "compliant" components. There's a wide variation among manufacturers regarding HDMI implementation and this can be a real bear to sort out. I can say, based on my experience with the VP30 (and now the VP50) that the DVDO products are among the best in playing HDMI "by the rules" so I really think the source of the HDMI problems is not the VP50. (The team that worked on the DVDO product line includes Jano Banks who is the co-patent holder of the HDMI technology.)

I hope you can sort out all of this and identify exactly which components are guilty of disrupting the HDMI/HDCP chain. It can be frustrating but at least the industry is aware of the situation and is responding to it. Currently I'm working with some HDMI switches (a Gefen and an ACCELL) that work some of the time with HDMI but still have some serious handshaking issues that requires me to go through hoops when sending the HDMI video to my projector (the HP works fine). I'll be beta testing a new HDMI repeater/distribution switch in a month or so that promises to solve this issue and I'll have more to say about that once I get a chance to test it out.

Sorry that I can't be any more specific regarding your problems at this time but keep asking Adam and myself and we'll try to narrow this down a bit more. As I have been saying for a long time (and have taken some heat for on some other HT venues) - HDMI still has a long way to go before it is fully "plug and play." But it is getting better than even one year ago.

Switching the topic a bit - what are your initial impressions of the VP50, what it does and how it does it? Is it too early to tell as you work out your HDMI issues or do you have some impressions to share?

Robert Crawford · 11-09-2006, 09:44 AM

RAF,
I wasn't blaming the VP50 for those problems, I'm just pointing out that I am having some HDMI problems. As far as my audio processor, I have the Yamaha-2600 that came out back in the spring. It's only a temporary component for my main HT setup because I actually bought it for my bedroom HT.

I haven't a lot of time to play around with the VP50 yet, but the latest Batman film looked fantastic as did the SD DVD of X-Men 3 upconverted. However, for some reason I had the SD DVD of "Vera Cruz" the Cooper/Lancaster western laying around, my god that dvd's video presentation is so full of film grain, I couldn't hardly watch it.

More to come as I play around with the settings.

Crawdaddy

RAF · 11-09-2006, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Crawford

RAF,
I wasn't blaming the VP50 for those problems, I'm just pointing out that I am having some HDMI problems. As far as my audio processor, I have the Yamaha-2600 that came out back in the spring. It's only a temporary component for my main HT setup because I actually bought it for my bedroom HT.

I haven't a lot of time to play around with the VP50 yet, but the latest Batman film looked fantastic as did the SD DVD of X-Men 3 upconverted. However, for some reason I had the SD DVD of "Vera Cruz" the Cooper/Lancaster western laying around, my god that dvd's video presentation is so full of film grain, I couldn't hardly watch it.

More to come as I play around with the settings.

Crawdaddy

Understood, CD. I wasn't sure whether you were blaming the VP50 for the HDMI problems, but you've cleared that up for me. What you are experiencing with HDMI are some of the bumps in the road that we have to overcome until all manufacturers standardize their HDMI implementations. At CEDIA 2006 Adam and I talked to some people who have created certification standards for HDMI. Hopefully this will sort things out. I don't know enough about the Yamaha and any HDMI issues so I can't pinpoint it for you any more than that. Incidently, I'm treating my new Denon 3806 A/V receiver the same way as you are treating your Yamaha - a temporary solution as the HDMI audio thing (1.3, etc. etc.) sorts itself out. Once the new HDML 1.3 (or beyond) pre/pros make their appearance the 3806 will go elsewhere in my home as a very nice 7.1 receiver.

I think the "component" approach (separate video processor) helps us in the HDMI audio transition period so we don't overspend on audio processors which will soon be out of date for the main HT.

RAF · 11-14-2006, 08:50 AM

I recently received a PM with a question that I believe might be of general interest so I'm re-posting it here to share. (I prefer the forum to private messaging where applicable). Here's the gist of the message:

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Originally Posted by HTF member (name omitted by me)

Hello Robert, I am wondering if I could trouble you for your views on the video processor? I have a Sony Grand Wega with one HDMI input and will shortly have a few devices with HDMI outputs so am needing a video switcher; preferably a 4 to 1. Thanks for your time. Cheers

That's a very broad question and not one that can be answered in a sentence or two. Did you see the thread on the whole concept that I started? That thread contains a lot of details regarding video processors in general and some thoughts on my DVDO VP30 (now a VP50). A while back I wrote a piece on my VP30 (you can see it here) and what I said about the VP30 also goes for the VP50. The VP50 adds some additional goodies but the basic premise doesn't change. I just haven't gotten around to writing an update on the VP50 since I've been extremely busy.

Before you rush out to get a video processor you need to ask yourself a few questions. If you have a 1080p set that offers 1080p native input then you might be a candidate for a video processor (any brand and model). But if your 1080p set doesn't accept 1080p then a lot of what the VP does is defeated. However, I think your basic question involves having a way to get multiple HDMI inputs for your one HDMI input set, right? If so, then the choice would be an HDMI switcher, not a full blown video processor. It's much, much less expensive and if you choose a good one (one that follows all the HDMI/HDCP rules) then it will do the job.

One word of advice. If you skimp on the HDMI switch you will probably be sorry since if HDMI is not done right you are bound to have signal and handshaking issues. You can buy a switch for under $100 but you probably will get burned (unless you are extremely lucky.) The switch that I recommend can be seen here. It's a bit pricier than some switches but not exhorbinant and it was designed by one of the inventors of HDMI.

I hope that this helps.