Why I haven't taken the plunge -yet. My take on all this.

RAF · 05-13-2006, 09:59 AM

People who know me are shocked by the fact that I haven't picked up an HD-DVD player yet. In fact, I've even received a few e-mails asking me when I'm going to post a review of my new player either here or on my HT web site. I would be the first to admit that I'm even a bit amazed myself that I didn't have one the first day the players were released but, upon reflection, I'm glad in a way that I've waited a bit. Please don't misunderstand. I'm definitely going to have a player in the next couple of months (maybe even two players!) and I'm not posting this here to put any damper on all the excitement being generated by the new machines. I'm always happy when people get enthused over some aspect of Home Theater and I applaud you. I'd just like to add a little personal perspective.

I'm reminded of what happened when DVD players were introduced in 1997. In fact, the HTF was started when a bunch of LD addicts saw an opportunity to introduce a new forum concurrently with the new technology because we believed that DVDs would revolutionize Home Theater. With a very large LD collection, my initial reaction was to say "I'm only going to buy new titles on DVD and not replace my LD titles" because it appeared to me that LD quality, while not quite as good as DVD, was still "O.K." to me. HTF owner, Ron Epstein, echoed these sentiments as did many other enthusiasts. Boy, were we mistaken!

What I failed to realize at the time was that

The quality of the early DVDs would improve remarkably over the next few years so that LD was no longer even close (except for DTS sound)
Another huge improvement that DVDs offered was its navigational features via menus and extras. True, you could go to "Chapter Stops" with LDs but it was kludgy at best, not to mention the limitations of side changes and multiple LDs for a movie longer than 2 hours. I still have my LDs thanks, in part, to new scaling techniques that have improved the picture a bit more and also because there are still a few titles that are only available in that format. But I will be the first to admit that my LD viewing sessions are now far and few between.

Now that HD discs have started to appear it seems as though the same arguments are cropping up all over again. While my initial reaction is to say that "I'm going to wait" it isn't really based on whether HD discs offer that much more clarity over SD discs. Without a doubt (and verified by several friends whose opinions I value and who have already pulled the trigger purchasing the early HD-DVD machines) the picture on the HD-DVDs is better - by far - than SDs. Add to the mix (no pun intended) the new sound formats and you have some major potential upgrades here. And also without a doubt I'm going to get a player sooner than later. But not just yet. There are a few things in play here that justify, to me, the wait (and anyone who knows me knows I'm usually the first kid on the block to get the new toys). For one thing, unlike the LD to DVD transition - this time there is a format war and all the lunacy that this brings. Secondly, the early HD-DVD players with their ridiculous start up times bring back memories of LD loading times, etc. Definitely not a step forward. And the lack of software is a bit ridiculous (probably a bit related to the format wars) considering the leap in picture quality and features. I know that all this will change over time, especially when Blu-ray is introduced and there is real competition for the buyer's dollars. Players will get faster and cheaper, titles will flood the market and we will reminisce fondly over the "old days" of SD DVDs.

Yes, I will get an HD player (probably even one of each format unless the "uber-machine" makes it to market that plays everything) but not this weekend. I'm not only positioned to be able to enjoy the full benefit of HD discs but, based on the output of the current HD-DVD players my viewing equipment exceeds what HD-DVD is providing. With a fully compliant 1080p input capable display (HP MD5880n) I really want to wait until the material provides 1080p content. Yes, I know that the 1080i output of the current players is better than the 1080i output of most other HD signal sources (HD television in its many flavors) and friends have told me "you've got to see how much better it is!" But the fact remains that in a month or two 1080p DVDs will be here whenever Blu-ray gets off its butt. I already have access to some 1080p content via WMVHD titles (ironically there are about as many WMVHD discs available at this writing as there are HD-DVD titles even though I know this will change) so I have seen the "future" of display imagery. 1080p into a 1080p capable set is even more impressive than full bandwidth 1080i into the same set. And I also am looking forward to what I consider to be one of the other breakthroughs (besides image quality) of the high capacity discs - the new menu options and overlay capabilities. To me, this is as significant a step forward in HT viewing as the transition from LD chapter stops to DVD Menus was a decade ago. Maybe even more so!

So I'm definitely not a Luddite regarding HD disc technology. I'll probably wait a month or so until Blu-ray is introduced because then things should really get interesting. Not only will I have my 1080p cake at that point but I'll be able to eat it!

Ain't technology grand? It never stops.

TedD · 05-13-2006, 10:39 AM

Quote:

my viewing equipment exceeds what HD-DVD is providing

Not meaning to start a fight here

BUT: Unless you have upgraded to a 1080 projector since your equipment list was last updated on your web site, you really don't have all the equipment to do even todays HD-DVD's justice.

A single chip 720 DLP, regardless of brand (or re-brand) is so far below the level of projector quality that you need to even begin to display the nuances of today's HD-DVD, that I am surprised you posted this. Wobulated 1080 DLP isn't real 1080 either in my book, and the PWM used to control the mirror duty cycle for any of the DLP projectors adds an additional layer of artifacts to darker scenes. This was not a serious issue with DVD due to the existing noise on backgrounds created by the highly compressed DVD MPEG encoding. But it's painfully obvious on HD-DVD which is capable of pristine solid backgrounds with no mosquito noise or other artifacts.

Todays HD-DVD'a ARE 1080P. Doing the processing that is required to convert 24 P to interlaced in the player and back to progressive in the projector is trivial and has no cost in image quality.

I have a Sony Qualia 004 projecting on a large constant height screen (5'x13') and there is no negative impact whatsoever when using 24 FPS sources and using either 24PsF or 60I and letting the projector deinterlace (and for that matter letting the projector IVTC) the signal.

I also have a HTPC, and the desktop or even a test pattern of alternating black and white lines is pristine when feeding the Qualia either 1080 24PsF or 1080 60I .

However, trying to feed HD-DVD to my Sharp 12000 reveals a totally different experience. In that scenario, the difference between upscaled DVD and HD-DVD are not at all striking.

All connections via DVI (PC) /HDMI (HD-DVD).

This is my experience so far with around 6 of the initial releases.

I am used to a very high quality DVD experience using the HTPC to upscale DVD to 1080, but the HD-DVD takes image quality to a new and much higher level using a 1080 projector, which BTW has not been modified to accept 1080 60P

Just my $.02.

Ted

ChristopherDAC · 05-13-2006, 11:11 AM

He says — in the message body — he's got a Hewlett-Packard MD5880n, which is a "wobulated" 1080p DLP rear-projector. I don't happen to think "wobulation" is such a good deal [or, in fact, DLP, after seeing your SXRD!], but on the other hand, it's one of a handful of things on the market which accepts 1080p input.

I have never had a LaserDisc take more than about five seconds to load, so I don't have any idea what the remark on "long load times" is supposed to mean. The side changes take a little while, but there aren't that many side breaks in my collection, so I don't care. [Y'know, Ted, I'd almost offer to buy that S9 if you don't think you're going to use it any more, but I decided a while back that I wasn't going to buy another LD player except for High Definition models.]

When DVD came out, I decided it was only a stopgap until a High Definition medium came along, so I ignored it and concentrated on the disc medium [LD] which had the back catalogue I wanted. Now I'm waiting for titles I want to be released on at least one of the HD media [my bet is on Blu-Ray, because Disney controls the Ghibli films]. I hope it won't be too long, either.

Michael Osadciw · 05-13-2006, 08:41 PM

Well, I won't jump into the technicalities of it all, but I agree with Robert on waiting it out just a bit...given the array of choices we will have in just a few short months I can hold my wallet back for a short while.

But for those of you who must have HD now, then go for it. I've been very impressed with what I've seen so far.

Mike

RAF · 05-13-2006, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Unless you have upgraded to a 1080 projector since your equipment list was last updated on your web site, you really don't have all the equipment to do even todays HD-DVD's justice.

Ted,

You haven't been paying attention.

I still have my 720p Runco CL-710 projector, but I recently added a HP MD5880n 1080p DLP RP monitor (58") to my HT and, since it is one of the few 1080p input capable units out there right now I most certainly have the capability to see 1080p in all its glory. In fact, I've been doing that for months with 1080p Output from my HTPC. There are at least as many WMVHD titles out there as HD-DVD titles right now, which I already stated. I also said this would not remain the case for long. The point is, I'm as well equipped as anyone to view 1080p today. You can read my review here on the forum of the HP unit. The next major RAF HT upgrade will be a 1080p projector. I predict they will be under $5K with two years.

Quote:

I don't happen to think "wobulation" is such a good deal

Christopher,

I'm not going to get into a debate with you over this and you are entitled to your opinion but I've seen both the SXRD technology and the "wobulated" HP and I rate them almost equal. True, I'd purchase a Sony Ruby if I was getting an FP now (I'm not) but to me the HP DLP is superior to the Sony SXRD RP set - especially since the RP version of the SONY doesn't accept 1080p input. I could have purchased either unit and I chose the HP over the SONY after seeing them both. Have you seen "wobulated" output? I've had discussions with people who talk about it as if it were a bad thing or somehow cheating. The fact of the matter is that the process happens quicker than the eye can see so that at any given moment the eye sees the full complement of dots. In fact, the process actually lessens any "screen door" effects (or whatever they call it in DLP land) because there is a nice blending of the points of light. Wobulation isn't really a half-baked process at all as some would let you believe. It is actually an ingenious application and it actually works.

In any event, this isn't a thread about debating "wobulation" but one to talk about HD hardware and our plans to take the plunge. The "wobulation" discussion should be in another place at another time. Unfortunately, these things tend to get unduly passionate and there are other forums where some people thrive on crossing swords with each other. I think most of you know what and where I'm talking about. And a lot of these so called "experts" are talking without ever having seen an HP in action but just pontificating after reading about it. Unfortunately, that's par for the course "over there."

**HTF Ads**

TedD · 05-13-2006, 10:41 PM

Doesn't change the fact that a 1080I transport doesn't degrade a film sourced HD-DVD. Don't believe me? Take a look: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=628237

My point is that the lack of a 1080P transport in the first generation HD-DVD player is not a valid reason not taking advantage of HD-DVD today.

You may have other reasons. That's fine. A 1080I transport mechanism is not going to impair the quality of todays 1080P encoded HD-DVD's, so it is not a valid reason for waiting.

Ted

Glenn Overholt · 05-13-2006, 11:37 PM

Ok, I won't quibble over the difference in seeing 1080i vs. 1080p, but what about the audio on these HD players? What do you get without an HDMI compliant receiver? (I have to assume here that no one has one yet, namly because the 1.3 specs aren't done with yet).

If I read the info on the HD players correctly, you can get 5.1 analog at best -but you'd have to have a receiver that was equipped that way, and most aren't, I think. (I'm waiting for 7.1)!

So, if you're stuck with using the same cables that we used for SD DVD, is it true that you can't get better sound?

Glenn

RAF · 05-14-2006, 12:36 AM

Granted, I realize that the material encoded on the current HD-DVD discs is in 1080p and that the "next" generation of HD-DVD players will pass that resolution through to the display devices. I also realize that the uncompressed 1080i looks darn good (especially when compared to the usually compressed 1080i that we are fed from HD content providers (cable and dish). No arguments there. However, I still question why the HD-DVD camp chose to release the first players with this 1080i limitation. I would tend to think that it was done to "beat" Blu-ray to market - especially since they tell us 1080p output is "coming soon." This first effort really looks like a rush to the finish line.

Whatever. Blu-ray with 1080p output will be here soon enough to warrant waiting a month or two. And I suspect that there will be many more titles available at launch time.

To say that there is no discernible difference between the look of 1080i and 1080p really begs the issue. I had to laugh when the reference to an AVS thread was posted here. I watch movies, not test patterns. While there are a lot of knowledgeable people who post there the signal to noise ratio over there is so bad that I take almost everything there with a grain of salt. 1080p, in my estimation, looks better than 1080i.

And to say that "wobulation" isn't 1080p "in your book" really distorts what this technology is all about. A lot has been written about the resultant resolution of this technique and it is a full 1080p. The 1920 spec is achieved by alternating the 960 fields, but so rapidly as to present the full 1920 points quicker than the human eye can possibly respond. In effect this means that even with wobulation you see a 1920 x 1080 image at all times. In fact the wobulation smooths out any "screen door" DLP effects and in side by side tests many people actually prefer the wobulated 1920x1080 image to the "discrete" 1920x1080 image because of this blending.

In my opinion you are using both sides of the argument to try to prove your point. On the one hand you champion 1080i as being "practically indistinguishable" from 1080p so 1080p output isn't really important. And on the other hand you claim that "wobulated" 1080p isn't as good as "real" 1080p because it doesn't have the same resolution. Which is it?

In any event, the 1080i/1080p/wobulated/not wobulated issue is secondary to me. They all provide great pictures. But I choose to wait for 1080p output since that gives me one less thing to worry about in the scaling chain since my display is fully 1080p compliant (at 24,30 and 60 Hz). That certainly is a "valid" reason for those of us who have displays which can handle 1080p input not to settle for 1080i input no matter what you claim. If the HD content is encoded on the disc in 1080p format then you are introducing two generations of scaling into the process which don't need to be there.

However, the real reason for my not rushing out to get the Toshiba has to do with a lot of other things I mentioned. The selection of software available doesn't really thrill me so a month or two wait won't matter. And the 45 second wait for a disc to start is really a step backwards. While one might think that 45 seconds isn't a big deal it quickly adds up when one watches a lot of movies as I do. I keep thinking about one of the finest LD players I ever owned (still have it) the Industrial Pioneer 8000. It could find any field on an LD in under .5 seconds. But in order to achieve this it took over a minute to spin up since it was effectively mapping the entire contents of an LD side before being ready to roll. Yes, it produced a great picture and almost instantaneous frames (essential for educational and commercial LD video applications) but that minute to get started really got old fast. Here's hoping the later HD disc players don't have agonizingly long start up times.

So, yes, I have the equipment to watch HD discs (beyond my HTPC) right now. I even have a pre/pro that accepts 5.1 analog inputs so I can get the benefit of the new sound formats - thus avoiding the HDMI merry-go-round for now. I'm sure by the time I replace the pre/pro the new one will be HDMI compliant. One of the many benefits of separates. But, no, I'm not rushing out to get the current Toshiba player. A lot better will come along very soon.