Alex.D

Yamaha DVD-C750 or Onkyo DV-C802? Please help me choose..

My apologies for the upcoming long post. I figure, by providing all the information I know, I'll seem like less of a newbie, and maybe get better advice

The short version:
I want a changer that can play as many formats as well as possible. Focus on audio, as my TV sucks (Panasonic CT-24SX11 with uncontrollable green tint on component input), and there's no chance of getting it upgraded until I graduate from grad school (6 months), get a decent paying job, and move out of my parents' house
So, choices:
Yamaha DVD-C750 - $263 shipped from a reputable retailer - etronics.com
Onkyo DV-C802 - $350 shipped (On special?) from JandR.com
Which would you choose, and why?

My current setup:
Harman Kardon AVR-320 receiver
Dahlquist QX4 fronts and surrounds
QX40C center
QX100S sub
Crappy Panasonic CT-24SX11 with a distinct green tint on component input and more overscan than I'd like) It would not do justice to a $500+ player (i.e. Denon 2910) plus the high-end crowd seems to dislike changers as a rule.


What I know so far:
I've taken the Toshiba 6915 out of the contention due to multiple issues.

So, I'm left with two models: Yamaha DVD-C750 and Onkyo DV-C802. The current lowest prices I've found were $263 for the Yamaha (From Etronics.com) and $350 for the Onkyo (from JandR.com)

I'd like to be able to get the best audio quality given current upstream components. I realize the video quality is limited by my crappy TV (which was picked because it was the biggest set I could fit in my furniture, even a 24" Sony was too wide), but I'm getting this more for multichannel audio experience than a visual extravaganza.

Onkyo advantages:
1 extra disc bay (6 instead of 5)
More solid construction / heft
"Video Circuit Off" button - For that extra undetectable boost in audio quality!
Aesthetics - The green LED dot-matrix display is retro-geek.
Better remote - FF/REW separate from track/chapter skip buttons
Direct disc access (instead of "next disc" button on Yamaha)


Onkyo disadvantages:
No DivX
Some shuffle issues reported (not all tracks get shuffled, many repeats before all tracks get played). This is irrelevant to me, I never use shuffle.

Onkyo wildcards:
Audio quality - is it better than Yamaha?
HDCD support
Bass management for DVD-A and SACD (Crossover point, slope)
Robustness of mp3 handling (320KBPS, VBR, ID3 support?)
PCM conversion of SACD material (Does it ever happen?)
DVD+R handling (not specified in manual, but reported to work)


Yamaha advantages:
DivX support
Official DVD+R support
On-screen navigation for data CDR's (DivX, MP3)
ID3 tag support (I'm currently working on tagging my MP3's!)
$87 cheaper
1/4" shallower (I barely have 16 inches of shelf depth to work with, 16 3/4" is pushing it)
Video quality (Irrelevant - my 24" Panasonic is the limiting factor)

Yamaha disadvantages:
Less CD slots
Worse remote
Fixed 120hz crossover point (but close enough for my Dahlquist QX4's?)

Yamaha wildcards:
Shuffle (not a big deal even if it's completely broken)
PCM conversion of SACD material (When doing bass management? Always?)

This SACD to PCM is pretty important to me on a philosophical level. Basically, if the format's main feature is nearly infinite temporal resolution, chopping it into relatively long "samples" makes the whole exercise pointless. If I'm going to take the time to listen to high-rez audio, I want to hear it in its purest form - with no lost resolution due to format changes or extra A/D conversion stages.



The longer version:
As a belated winter holidays present for myself, I can finally get a universal DVD changer. My parents are taking my old-ish JVC XV-SA70BK for one of their TV's, a unit I never really liked using (You know how you can close the CD tray and, while the player is collecting its wits, hit the next track button several times to begin playback several tracks/chapters ahead? The XV-SA70BK flat out refused to do it - I had to wait for it to load the CD and THEN hit the skip track button) Plus I get to replace both the above DVD player and my Denon DCM-360 (Alpha Processing made it sound REALLY nice with my old analog stereo receiver, but the lack of digital out means it's not meant to be hooked up to an HT receiver that forces A/D conversion on analog inputs) with a multidisc do-it-all unit.

I'm looking forward to being able to watch "regular" DVD's without the need to get my entire home theater involved in the operation. The JVC didn't have a separate L/R audio output, so I couldn't get sound on my TV - just on the receiver. With the ability to hook up my TV to audio out on the DVD, I can pop in and watch a Sports Night DVD without making a big production out of it and waking my parents up with the sub

Rob Kramer

Between the two, the Onkyo will have the better audio quality.



Credible people with [very] high-dollar systems have not been able to hear the "lost resolution" (if it even exists). Do you think that you will be able to hear it? What system do you have?

Alex.D

Well, the high-dollar systems most likely have FAR better A/D converters than my lowly AVR-320. Again, it's more a "philosophical" difference - I don't like feeding analog signal to a digital device. So, since home theater receivers will always do A/D for bass management purposes, etc, I prefer not to feed them analog if I can help it.

My LCD monitor is hooked up over DVI. I like the fact that I want to display a single dot at a precise location, I will get THE single dot at THE location I want, no blur, no blob roughly where I placed the dot - it's nice and exact.

Besides, if my DVD changer is my CD changer, and it has digital out, it's a moot point anyway

PaulDA

If you apply bass management AND speaker distance settings in almost any universal player, there WILL BE a DSD to PCM conversion. I do something far worse , I take a pure DSD signal into the MCH inputs of my receiver and RE-DIGITIZE the signal to apply bass management and speaker distance settings. I do this because speaker distance settings are unavailable with SACD in my player (as is likely with your two choices) and because I get a better, steeper slope that way. I have compared the pure DSD signal vs the receiver in two channel (my player doesn't do a DSD to PCM conversion for bass management), both devices set to SMALL mains and sub ON (I didn't want the speaker distance issue to muddy the comparison) and found the steeper slope of my receiver was slightly noticeable (and preferable to me) while the sonic quality was otherwise indistinguishable. A solo a cappella soprano was not distinguishable (to get even the bass management out of the way).

This doesn't mean you should not seek to avoid DSD to PCM conversion, if you are philosophically opposed to it. It does mean you'll have a hard time avoiding it at your price point unless you run all speakers LARGE in the player OR one of the players stays in the DSD domain for bass management--not impossible, but hard to verify, sometimes. Best bet, call Yamaha and Onkyo and ask them what happens to the DSD stream in bass management.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes time, and it annoys the pig.

JarrettJ

just a thought...
check the price on a yammy 6770. it is exactly the same as a 750 but sold through their home theatre/specialty division. might be able to find it even cheaper.

Philip_T

I just picked up the Yamaha 750 over the weekend. Its not a bad little player for what it is. CD's sound good, SACD's sound pretty good, but I do find that the DVD-A playback is far inferior to my Denon 1600. No big deal for me, I'll just keep playing my DVD-A's through the Denon. One quirky little item is that it keeps defaulting the audio mode to Dolby PLII for cd's, but there is an audio button on the remote that will let you cycle through PLII, Stereo and MC. I wasn't able to audition the Onkyo though so I can't really compare the 2 other than I like the looks of the Onkyo a lot better.

Alex.D

If you don't mind me asking, where did you pick up the 750, and how much was it..? My Good Guys has it for $299.99, but it seems a bit cheaper online.

I just swung by Fry's Electronics (Giant warehouse-type store with everything from cabling to computers, to computer parts, to soldering irons, to audio gear and appliances) and they had the Onkyo 802 in stock. So, I'm auditioning it

Philip_T

Howard_You

If you can get the Onkyo 802 for $350 it's a bargain. It's typically twice the cost of the Yamaha c750. The only negative I've read about the Onkyo is that video is very poor.

I've had the c750 for over a month now and am very impressed with the sound. CDs, SACDs and DVD-A all sound very good. I have all speakers set to large since the fixed 120Hz crossover is too high for my setup.

Besides the DPLII setting quirk it also resets the CD upsampling setting when you change disks. Unfortunately, there's no remote button to quickly set it. I also find disk changes verrry slow.

It also handles NTSC & PAL and can be made region free.

Yamaha has also announced a c950 version which will have HDMI output as well as Farjouda processing.