What do you call political subdivisions in the UK?

Dennis Nicholls · 11-19-2006, 11:36 AM

I'm sure the members in the UK can set me straight on this issue.

In the US, the nation is subdivided into states, and the states are further subdivided into counties. Naturally there are exceptions, such as Massachusetts considering itself a commonwealth and the counties in Louisiana considering themselves parishes.

In Canada, the nation is subdivided into provinces.

What would the subdivisions be called in the UK? Specifically, what would you call those subdivisions we know as England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland? Ages ago they would be subdivided as kingdoms, princedoms, dukedoms, or earldoms, but I'm sure such names are no longer used.

A further question is this. Once we have a subdivision such as England, what would the further subdivisions be called? I'm thinking of Kent, Devon, Sussex, Cornwall, Oxfordshire, and the like. Are these called shires or counties? (Perhaps I've been reading too much Tolkein.)

And do antique regional subdivisions such as Wessex and Northumbria still have current usage? In the US we may discuss New England, the South, and the Pacific Northwest even though they are not really political units.

Any light you may care to shed on this topic would be appreciated. Specifically, if you may point me towards an article or book on the subject it would be helpful.

ChristopherDAC · 11-19-2006, 12:38 PM

As I recall, Sussex used to be divided into "rapes" (curious name, not from Latin at all, unlike two other words of the same spelling from "rapa" turnip and "rapire" to seize).

JeremyErwin · 11-19-2006, 01:52 PM

wikipedia: administrative divisions of england.

The US and Canada are Federal systems, so not only are the responsibilities of government divided up between the national and provincial governments, these provincial governments have an independent legal existence. In England, these provincial governments are mainly for the convenience of the national parliament, and can be rearranged to further that convenience. (Note that I said England. The sovereignities of the Scottish National Assembly and the Welsh National Assembly are somewhat more secure. There's probably no danger that a future British government would divide up the country into East Britain and West Britain, with Edinburgh, Newcastle, Lincoln, and London in one subdivision, and Glasgow, Liverpool, Birmingham, and Bristol in the other.

Dennis Nicholls · 11-19-2006, 04:12 PM

Well that's rather interesting. With their love of tradition, I would have thought the division of England into counties would have occurred sometime around 1600. Instead they are merely decades old.

So when I see national statistics such as http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2...s/pages/uk.asp , the "English regions" noted there within are those administrative counties set forth in 1974.

My interest is caused by beginning an outline for a "political fable" wherein the UK, frustrated by events in the EU, backs out of the EU completely and instead joins the US as several states under the US constitution. Naturally Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland would be admitted as states, but what about England? The 49 million people in England, 5 times the combined populations of Scotland, Wales, and Nothern Ireland, would create an indigestable state. (California with a population of 35 million is already a problem.) So I was considering for the purpose of the fantasy admitting England as 3 states: North England with a state capital at York, South England with a state capital at London, and Wessex with a state capital at Winchester. Since the people of England have little historical allegiance to the existing recent counties I'm guessing I can ignore the county lines for the purpose of my story.

JeremyErwin · 11-19-2006, 04:44 PM

You might also find this wikipedia article to be of interest. Some Britishers like to tinker, and others prefer the old ways (e.g. were you aware that a Cornish National Movement even exists?)

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Dennis Nicholls · 11-19-2006, 07:06 PM

Cornish National Movement?

I thought that any speech along those lines may be considered treason in the UK. Specifically, I thought that any "Republican Brits" had to keep their heads down, as talking about the eventual end of the House of Winsor is technically treason.

Cornwall looms large in California history...most of the technical expertise in Gold Rush mining came from Cornish miners. There are still to this day "Cornish Christmas" festivals in towns along the Mother Lode.

BrianB · 11-19-2006, 07:54 PM

Quote:

I thought that any speech along those lines may be considered treason in the UK. Specifically, I thought that any "Republican Brits" had to keep their heads down, as talking about the eventual end of the House of Winsor is technically treason.

By that standard, surely most of Scotland should be held for treason?

JeremyErwin · 11-20-2006, 12:21 AM

Why? The current monarch claims descent from the Stuarts...

Dennis Nicholls · 11-20-2006, 10:32 AM

Well I guess that British Republicans are allowed public discussions...
www.republic.org.uk/commoncause/index.htm

Anyway, back on topic. I have not yet heard any advice on the proper name for the major subdivisions of the UK, namely England, Scotland, et al. Are these still called "kingdoms" or would another name be used?

Would it be correct to refer to the "kingdom of Wales"?