Brett_H

Installing a ceramic tile kitchen floor, need advice

All,

My wife and I just got the keys to our first house two days ago (WOOHOO!), and along with that came a long list of improvements we want to make. The house was built in 1965 and until recently was inhabited by an older lady, so the interior's a little dated but overall it's in great shape. We can tackle most things rather easily (we hope), but I could use some advice on how best to proceed with tiling the kitchen floor. Here's the details of the existing floor:
2x10 joists, 16" on center. (The actual dims of the joists were 1.5"x9", those are '2x10', right?)
1 1/8" plywood subfloor
2 layers of existing vinyl (?) flooring

Here's where the questions come in. We want to lay 12"x12" ceramic tile, but I'm questioning whether we want to use cement backerboard of some sort. I've bought a couple of books from Home Depot (the big orange Home Improvement 1-2-3 one, and also Tiling 1-2-3) and they say that tile can be laid directly onto a plywood subfloor provided it's at least 1 1/8" thick, which mine is (just barely). I don't want to have a floor that cracks, so I'm a little worried about doing it this way. Enter the cement backerboards....

Home Depot carries two types of cement board, Hardibacker and Wonderboard. The Wonderboard stuff seems to be the older style, with a fiberglass mesh embedded on both sides. The Hardibacker more closely resembles drywall, and supposedly can be cut with a utility knife. I've heard differing opinions on which to use. The Hardibacker website recommends a minimum 5/8" subfloor, so I'm well over that. Are these types of boards overkill if I already have a sound 1 1/8" plywood subfloor?

Another concern would be the transitions to other rooms. The kitchen/hallway/breakfast area to be tiled will be bordered on two sides by hardwood floors and on another by carpet. The existing floor (two layers of vinyl) is level with the adjoining rooms. I'm thinking that if I strip these two layers off and lay down 1/4" Hardibacker that I'd be back to level with the other rooms, then adding the mortar and tile onto that will put me about 1/4" over. This should be easily hidden by a small wooden transition piece, right? Is there a better way to go about this? If I skip the cement board, I'd end up being more even with the adjoining rooms, but I don't want to sacrifice longevity for appearance of the transitions.

I've also read that certain flooring made before 1985 could contain asbestos and might be harmful to remove. Should I be concerned about this if all I'm going to be doing is scraping it up? Speaking of scraping, that's possibly my biggest concern, or at least what appears to be the biggest pain of the whole project. How do I remove the old flooring?? Tools, techniques, any advice would be appreciated.

OK, so I'm getting long-winded at this point. Hopefully there's some pros or good DIYers on this forum that can lend a newbie a hand! (Pointers to other good forums would also be appreciated)

Thanks,
-Brett.

imported_Buzz Vinard

I've not worked with ceramic tile yet, but another option you might want to investigate is the vinyl peel-and-stick tiles that Home Depot sells. I've used the Traffic Master stuff in two rooms so far, the kitchen/dining area and the master bathroom. In the kitchen, I used three colors and made an inlay design (a six-foot Yin/Yang).

I scraped away the old flooring first, though the instructions said I didn't have to. Then I treated with an adhesive primer, then cut (when necessary), peeled, and applied the tiles to the floor. Very easy, and there is no grout to seal or maintain. The floor also isn't as cold to the feet as ceramic tends to get.

Transitions should be fairly smooth. No matter which way you go, there are transition borders of varying heights.

Asbestos exposure, I would think, would be a personal question of whether or not you believe the hype surrounding it. 99.9% of commercial asbestos-using products use what is known as "serpantine" asbestos which is made up of long, curly fibers. These fibers clear the lungs as easily as other dust. The remaining .1% were "short fiber" asbestos, which is made up of short, straight fibers that do a good job of lodging themselves in the lungs permanently. If I recall correctly, it was the late seventies when the EPA decided that all asbestos had to go. This decision was based on the human dangers of short-fiber asbestos, which had been used in extremely limited circumstances. Serpantine-fiber asbestos had been used in almost anything that needed heat protection: oven mitts, fireman's protective wear, and even hair dryers. I owned one of these. And in the seventies we all used hair dryers for that "feathered look". Meaning, that millions of people were blowing air onto their heads right across a sheet of asbestos, every single day! You'd be hard-pressed to find a better way to expose your lungs to asbestos fibers. Twenty-five years later, we're all fine, or at least the problems we do have aren't attributable to asbestos in oven mitts or hair dryers.

So, do you worry about it or not? If I had to guess, I'd say that the asbestos in your flooring, if it is there at all, is prbably of the serpantine fiber variety. If it were me, I'd probably rip the stuff out without a second thought, put it in trash bags, and haul it to the dump. But you'll have to decide what you are comfortable with. Talk to someone local who has been in the flooring business a while. Even if they aren't getting your business right away, they know that being friendly and answering your questions might lead to future business. They would likely know what is required to handle and remove old flooring like yours. My guess is that they do nothing extraordinary, since EPA regulations do not require any special handling for demolition or renovations to residential homes that contain asbestos.

Jay H

I gather it would also be better to do the walls, paint/wallpaper, etc. and stuff if you have plans on replacing the floor, so you don't have to worry about getting paint or dropping stuff onto the floor.

I have done some basic vinyl tiling before, the laying of the tile is fairly simple, the time consuming part is replacing the old floor and removing any creaks and/or laying down a new subfloor cause then you have to cut the plywood to match and remove moldings, appliances, etc.

Jay

You are the crispy noodle in the vegetarian salad of life

Lee L

I would use the woderboard. It can be cut with a utility knife (just score one side and snap). Also, just to be safe, you can spread thinset adhesive and just screw it down on top of the existing floor no problem. As Buzz mentioned you can get transition strips in wood and in marble in various sizes and profiles. Also, look at the brass or chrome 1/8" metal edge that goes down under the tile, that is good for carpet as long as the carpet is not too much lower than the new tile. Also depending on the britleness of the tile and the shapes of any cuts you might want to either buy one of the $100 wet saws at HD or rent a saw.

Also, the John Bridge Forum was listed here a while ago. Plenty of good info there.

Revenge is like serving cold cuts-

Tony Soprano

Dave Morton

I put 12x12 ceramic tile in my kitchen a couple of years ago.

First I ripped up all the layers of vinyl flooring. Then I put down the cement board, aka wonderboard. You need to do this because if they plywood subfloor would happen to buckle some day, say you get a crack in a tile or grout and water gets underneath, then you can warp the wood and this can cause the tiles to get raised and break. At least that's what I've been told. Also, you can just score a line on the wonderboard and take your utility knife and cut a small line. You will get a clean break. It's very easy.

My house was built in the 1950's but I wasn't too worried about the asbestos. I just wore a mask and safety glasses. You would want to do this anyways because it get's pretty messy.

I have hardwood floors in the rooms outside my kitchen. So for my threshold between the rooms, I bought a piece of wood that was the same as the hardwood. I measured the diffence in height from the other room to the top of the tiles. Then I cut the piece to the same height on a table saw. Then I cut it to about an inch or two depth and then cut an angle of 30 degrees from about 1/2" back from where the tile and threshold start. I sanded the wood and put a couple of coats of polyuruthane and screwed it down with some gold philips screws. Turned out good.

One piece of advice I would have would be to use a dark colored grout, like gray or something like that. I used a light colored tan grout and it got real dirty. And yes, I put the grout sealer on and it still got dirty. I have no idea why this happened. It just did. So in heavy traffic area, my grout is dark, but in the corners, the grout is light.

Hope this helps.

------ Dave ------
------------------
MY HT

New Family Addition

Brett_H

Buzz, thanks or the detailed response about asbestos!. I'd never really considered it before reading about it last night and I wasn't aware that there were two different types. I'm planning on just wearing a mask and making sure we clean really well after we're done. We've not yet moved in, so the house is empty and cleanup should be easy enough.

We've decided to go with ceramic tile just because it's so durable and attractive. We had already decided on a darker grout to hide dirt, so we've got that taken care of. I'm planning on laying out the tile first to see what cuts are needed, then renting the tile saw from Home Depot for a whole day in order to make the cuts.

Jay, you're right: we're planning on painting the walls and ceiling, and also stripping and staining the existing cabinets. Yes, we're ambitious! Anyway, we're planning on doing all of this before tackling the floor in order to make sure we don't mess up the floor in the process.

Lee, I want to make sure we're talking about the same things here. When I refer to "Wonderboard", I'm talking about the concrete looking stuff that has a fiberglass mesh impregnated on both sides. "Hardibacker" resembles drywall, in that it has a paper layer on either side. The Home Depot guy informed me that the Wonderboard needed a special carbide-tipped blade to score/cut, while the Hardibacker only needed a utility knife. I just double-checked the Hardibacker website, and it states "Use a straight edge as a guide to score sheet's face with carbide tipped scoring knife" so there goes that advice... I really don't care whether or not I have to buy a special knife to score this with, I just want to make sure we're referring to the same product. Also, I'm planning on ripping up both layers of the existing flooring, since I've read that if there's more than one layer of vinyl flooring (my case) it's too spongy and could lead to cracks.

Dave, sounds like we had very similar situations. Thanks for the comments, it sounds like we had the same general approach. Have you noticed any cracking of tiles or grout? Do you recall offhand what your subfloor consisted of in the way of joists, etc?

For those of you who have used cement board, what brand did you use and in what thickness? I'm planning on 1/4" Hardibacker as that's what they recommend for flooring.

Thanks for all the help!
-Brett.

Eric_L

Best advice I can give is to pay a professional installer. They will do it in less than half the time with twice the quality. AND a warranty!

I have personally laid about 1200 square feet of tile on a concrete slab house and swore at that time, I'd never do it again.

Also, pulling up the old floor was more of a bitch than laying the new one. I stopped pulling it up after one room and you can't tell the difference today.

One trick I heard about (after my install) to help prevent cracking is to lay felt cloth under your tiles and then mud over it. This give some play and slack between then floor and the tiles for heat, expansion, warping, etc.

Jared_B

I had a job laying tile back in HS. Wonderboard is preferred over any other type by the pros. It was very easy to work with, and it comes in different thicknesses. Like Dave said, you never want to lay tile directly onto plywood. Even the slightest movement underneath the tile will cause cracking.



According to the guys I worked with, grout and tile sealers are crap. They never used them, and never had a problem. They don't do anything to prevent stains.

Lee L

I'm talking about the same stuff - wonderboard. The HD guy was full of it. All you have to do is score the stuff with a knife and it will snap just like sheetrock. Now, you can't use that same knife blade to slice a tomato afterword like the Ginsu knife but it will cut the backerboard fine. Just buy a pack of extra blades.

As far as grout color, I would stay away from really dark grouts as well. They tend to get li