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APOLLO 13 -- DTS or DD version: which is better? (MERGED THREAD)

#61
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ou meant to say that with a WS Super-35 transfer, we ARE getting the Director's intent. Right?


Yes. I was referring to the full frame transfer.

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#62
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Can't quite figure out how anybody could not possibly notice the approx. 30% MORE image on the left & right of the screen via a Widescreen 2.35 transfer??
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#63
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Because he's NOT getting 30% more image in the widescreen version!!! He's getting 30% or so more image in the full frame version at the top and bottom!

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#64
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That person's WS version DOES have 30% MORE info on the left & right of screen. Has to. No way it can't, when comparing it to a 1.33 version of a 2.35 AR.
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#65
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I give up.

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#66
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David, do a search here on Super35 and you'll understand how it works. It's been covered many times in the past so there's little point going over it again here. It doesn't work the same way as 'scope films so the 30% increase in lateral image doesn't apply.

As for the DVD, the DD and DTS versions are pretty similar in terms of sound quality, however the DD disc has slightly better video and superb extra material.

The DTS LD was the best for audio.

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#67
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Therefore, from what you're saying, Ron Howard's original ratio for this film was not nearly as wide as 2.35. Must have been closer to 1.66:1. Then huge mattes utilized to crop it to 2.35. Had to be....or else much more "side" info would be lost in a FF video presentation.

Correct? Or crocked?
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#68
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That person's WS version DOES have 30% MORE info on the left & right of screen. Has to. No way it can't, when comparing it to a 1.33 version of a 2.35 AR.


Wrong, wrong, wrong.

As others have tried to explain, there is a process called super 35, which shoots on a SQUARE NEGATIVE. In cases like that, the director COMPOSED for the wide 2.35 frame, but the ngative captures a 4:3 image. The intent is to simply use the middle section of what the camera captures.

In these cases, the widescreen version is MATTED top and bottom, cutting out this extra information: both versions (wide and full) offer the full width of the negative-- and the matting is simply removed in the fullscreen version, revealing this area boave and below.

So the person making the comparison is right, there was no infomation gained on the sides-- rather info was matted from the top and bottom for the widescreen version! (The only exception would be in VFX shots, where they are usually rendered in the intended aspect, to save money, and thus the fullscreen versions will often be cropped just during effects shots).

Therefore, from what you're saying, Ron Howard's original ratio for this film was not nearly as wide as 2.35. Must have been closer to 1.66:1.


Don't get confused between original and camera ratio. The intended ratio for the film is 2.35:1. The actual ratio of the camera negative that gets exposed is closer to 4:3 (someone with a bit more film tech experience might be able to give you the exact aspect of shooting flat on 35mm).

So when they filmed, they shot for a 2.35:1 aspect, but made a "safe" area above and below -- for home video tis safe area was simply exposed.

In some cases on a fullscreen transfer from super 35-- they do a littl both (open the top and bottom a little, crop the sides a little)-- but in some cases they just open the mattes and transfer it 4:3 from the full exposed negative. This results in "more" picture for full frame, but not the intended picture.

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#69
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No, the aspect ratio is 2.35:1.

I think you're misunderstanding how Super35 works. Like I said, do a search. The info is on here somewhere. It's not easy to explain in a few words.

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#70
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Thanks.

Therefore, there is NO Panning & Scanning needed (or done) with a Super 35 film transferred to a FF video release. Correct?
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#71
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Therefore, there is NO Panning & Scanning needed (or done) with a Super 35 film transferred to a FF video release. Correct?


Well, 50/50.

In theory it is not necessary to pan & scan a super 35 film... however:

As I mentioned above effects shots are often created in the intended aspect. Because it is more expensive to render the full area of a 4:3 shot, they just render what they need to save time and money. In which case, effects shots are only 2.35:1, and there for must be cropped at the sides for 4;3.

Also, in some cases they do a mix and match- if the safe area above/below is not comppletely clean (say lighting equipment or boom mics were exposed)-- they will open the mattes a little and cut the sides a little.

There is an EXCELLENT example of this on the extras of the original T2 Se, I don't knw if this "film school" thing they included made it onto the extreme version- but the original had an excellent visual example.

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#72
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I hate to chime in and spoil the fun for you guys, but it is a little unfair to compare the DD to the DTS version on this title. I for one am a strong advocate for DTS, but Apollo 13 was only mixed in DTS for the theatrical release of this film. I say again, "Apollo 13 was only mixed in DTS". If you don't believe me, go to the imdb.com and take a look for yourself. Therefore the Dolby Digital version is actually DTS converted to Dolby because of the dvd standard. So, in essence, to listen to the DTS version is EXACTLY the same as it was in the theater. Now, I must admit that I haven't heard of the LD version of this film nor, Saving Private Ryan; so I cannot comment to that fact of a better soundstage comparing the DVD to the LD. I also have both versions on DVD, and prefer the DTS version if nothing else for the mere fact that the soundstage is unbelievable! Also to boot it is a Full-bit rate transfer and it uses the same CD-ROM master that was utilized in the theater.

Studios, bring back full-bit rate DTS!! It's not just for D-Theater anymore!

You may now continue the debate!

Robert
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#73
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I for one am a strong advocate for DTS, but Apollo 13 was only mixed in DTS for the theatrical release of this film. I say again, "Apollo 13 was only mixed in DTS". If you don't believe me, go to the imdb.com and take a look for yourself.


Since when is IMDB the end-all of accuracy?

Just because a film was released only with DTS prints (which despite the IMDB thing, i find hard to believe), does not mean it was mixed to DTS. I ahve never seen any real film mixed to any lossey compression format- they are all mixed to analog mag masters (older films) or to digital multitrack masters- uncompressed.

I'd be resonably comfortable saying Apollo 13 was mixed like every other film- to uncompressed digital multitrack tapes... and MAYBE due to other pressures and deals, it was only released on film with DTS sound attached.

But it wasn't "mixed" to DTS.

So, in essence, to listen to the DTS version is EXACTLY the same as it was in the theater. [snip] Also to boot it is a Full-bit rate transfer and it uses the same CD-ROM master that was utilized in the theater.


Nope- DTS home and theater are completely different codecs. The DTS format from a theatrical cd would not be recognized by a home decoder.

It absolutely was, at the very least, converted. most likely, completely re-encoded from the uncompressed masters (same source for the DD version!)

This is even mentioned on one of the opening pages of DTS' site:
Although the technology used for motion pictures differs from that featured in consumer and professional audio music and home theater systems, their DTS heritage means end users can enjoy sound that closely matches the original.


-V

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#74
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Gee...I'll have to go back and erase some of those stupid remarks I made earlier here. Didn't fully understand the difference between Super 35 and "Scope". I do now. Thanks to the crack HTFers!

Well....it's just like Ray Murdock said on his famous show, "Ray Murdock's X-Ray" (via The Dick Van Dyke Show):

"That's what we're here for...to x-ray and enlighten."

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#75
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To add to what others have said about Super-35, there is a good little explanation with a picture and example from T2 here:

http://www.widescreen.org/aspect_ratios.shtml

Matt

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#76
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Therefore, there is NO Panning & Scanning needed (or done) with a Super 35 film transferred to a FF video release. Correct?


No, there is usually much P&S on a full frame Super35 transfer. It really all depends on whoever is doing the transfer, I suppose. There are many Super35 films I have seen that use signifcant P&S even during shots with no significant effects. Panic Room and the Lord of the Rings films come to mind. In pretty much ever WS/FS comparison of a Super35 film I have seen there is some cropping at the sides of the frame. Some people would have you believe that all visual effects shots are hard matted to the approximate A.R. as well, but I believe this is another myth (at least nowadays) Since computer power is so much better today, I think that the hard matting is not quite as necessary anymore.

BTW I would recommend the DD 5.1 version of Apollo 13. The DTS may be a bit better soundwise, but from what I hear the picture is worse on the DTS version. Plus, the DTS version strips down all the extras on the 5.1 C.E. and those extras are great in my opinion.


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#77
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I agree with Dave H about the regular DD track versus the DTS on this disc. I A/B'd 'em and the DD was clearly superior in my system.
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#78
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NM
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#79
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I think the DD edition is worth having simply for the wealth of extras provided - but then again, that's just my preference for having well produced bonus features over multiple soundtracks.
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#80
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It sounds like these people just need to buy bigger TVs. They don't complain about the 2.35:1 framing in a theater but once it's on their 25" set, it's apparently a problem. Buy the VHS tape if you want open matte or pan and scan used to fit the film to a 4:3 screen. Buy the DVD if you want to see it the way it was presented in theaters.
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#81
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I think the DD edition is worth having simply for the wealth of extras provided - but then again, that's just my preference for having well produced bonus features over multiple soundtracks.


Very true. This is one of my favorite movies, and I have the DD dvd, the DTS dvd, and the DTS LD. The DD is well worth having just for the features. On my system, the DTS DVD sounds better than the DD DVD, but the DTS laser beats them both.
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#82
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If anyone wants an idea of the difference in picture quality between the discs, click here to see a comparison (152KB).

Bit-rate comparison:



Apollo 13 came out when Universal released many of its films to theatres only in DTS, but the DVDs' soundtracks would undoubtedly have been created using the original uncompressed master, as pointed out by Vince.

Adam

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#83
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Just to clarify. . .

Some films are shot "Open Matte", in a 4:3 image, with the *intention* of cropping them for actual theatrical projection. Super-35 is usually the film used this way. Some Full Frame VHS tapes and DVDs simply remove the mattes rather than actually pan & scan in order to create a 4:3 image.

This is why we see things like mic booms and "naked" people wearing underwear in some of these films.

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#84
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Wow -- I have both discs, but never did an A/B comparison. From that link, the picture on the DTS version is way better!

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#85
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Wow -- I have both discs, but never did an A/B comparison. From that link, the picture on the DTS version is way better!


Actually, it's the other way around.

I stated this in a previous post, but the DD does have better video quality. The picture is a bit sharper and more detailed--- just basing this on A/B comparions on my 61" display when I used to have both discs.
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#86
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I stated this in a previous post, but the DD does have better video quality. The picture is a bit sharper and more detailed


On my 53" widescreen, the DD version is sharper, but is also looks more grainy to me. The DTS version has a less sharp image, but is a little smoother and more filmlike.
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#87
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The DD is more grainy --- but I view this as being more natural as more detail is visible. The DTS has a softer, less detailed look --- almost like a filter was applied -- though I think this is just from lack of bit space.
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#88
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Does anyone have any idea what THIS IS?
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#89
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A re-price of the current CE perhaps?

As Rob says, the DTS version doesn't sound notably better than the Dolby Digital version, but the picture is very much softer and the disc loses all of the CE's extras. Jim and Marilyn Lovell's commmentary on the CE is worth the disc's cost alone, IMO.

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#90
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A re-price of the current CE perhaps?
Not unless Universal is allowing an outfit called "Classic Pictures" to now distribute its titles.
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