The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

Mike, what's with the thread fart?

Are you a musician? Have you ever studied music? Do you have any comprehension of the melodic and harmonic genius that is Lennon & McCartney?

Have you ever heard the following albums:

George Harrison: All Things Must Pass
John Lennon: Plastic Ono Band
Paul McCartney & Wings: Band On The Run

"Surely you must realize the influence they had on music during and after their run. Actually, it went way, way beyond music. If you ever watched "It's A Wonderful Life" think of it this way... We would all be living in Pottersville if it weren't for the Beatles." John

Hmmmm interesting turn in the thread here...but I'm sure that it wouldn't have been as vapid a music culture without the Beatles. Your comment does give me a chill, thinking that we could have been beset with a Dave Clark Five World. Now that would be something to worry about !!! At least Dave Clark knew his destiny lay in real estate..and the World was spared !

There were other, more powerful forces afoot, even bigger that the Beatles, that they themselves were influenced by.
I'm sure we all know who and what they were....US R & B, to name just one. It might have taken a little longer, but we still would have gotten there, is my point. And there was NOTHING, even no Beatles, to hold that back !

Really? Who wrote ths Stones first hit single?
Enough said indeed. Thanks for clearing up the fact that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

"Who wrote ths Stones first hit single?" RicP


Technically, their first hit single release was in the UK...
"Come On" by Chuck Berry bw. "I Want To Be Loved" by Wilie Dixon...but I'm guessing you don't mean this at all, do you ?

Sorry to disappoint, but "I Wanna Be Your Man" by Lennon/
McCartney bw. "Stoned" by Nanker Phelge, was their second UK official single...and their second single release ever, anywhere, and not until some six months later than "Come On".

Between the "Come On" and "I Wanna Be Your Man" UK singles, there were three compilation releases and one EP release.
"I Wanna Be Your Man" was on the "Ready, Steady, Go" UK compilation album....that's right, with "Come On".

Now "I Wanna Be Your Man" bw. "Stoned" was released as a promo only in the US around the same time as the official UK release of "Come On", but ONLY as a promo, in a limited pressing of 500...not as an official release for consumers.

Their first US official single release, of ANYTHING, wasn't until March '64 and that was "Not Fade Away" by Petty & Hardin bw. "I Wanna Be Your Man" Lennon/McCartney.

Don't tell me...all of this means nothing to your question, right ?

If you need any more help, just ask me.


GEeeeeesch !

On another subject...interesting thing about how some bands are "guy" groups and some are "girl" groups, regarding appeal...the Beatles have a really strong, almost fanatically so, "guy" following.

Hence, when one invokes the words "Yoko Ono" in just a hushed whisper anywhere, in the middle of a desert...it hits the "guy" fans like a Thunderbolt, and the sound of one hand clapping is overcome by a thunderous uproar likened to a hydrogen bomb.


"Yoko Ono"

I'm going to assume you're referring to the US vinyl version of BFS, because IIRC, "I Feel Fine" was a non-album single. Sorry, I grew up in the CD era, so my familiarity with the American vinyl is minimal. I agree, though: "I Feel Fine" is a pretty cool song; dunno if it's the first use of feedback like Lennon always said, but it's a great rocker either way.

My choice for "worse Beatles album" would have to be Let It Be. While there are a few great songs on there, the record just feels to lackluster to me, for a number of reasons:

1) I listened to LIB again recently and noticed how sloppy and unenthusiastic the instrumentation was. "I've Got a Feeling" and "I Me Mine" are good examples of this. A lot of the music doesn't really sound like the Beatles to me; it sounds more like John, Paul or George singing lead while a trio of somewhat incompetent session players back him up.

2) A friend of mine has a massive 10-disc box set containing many outtakes, demos and alternate takes from the LIB sessions, and from the stuff I've listened to, there was a lot of great material that could've been put on the album instead of the more filler-like official tracks ("Dig It," "The One After 909," "Maggie May," etc.). Even some of the tracks on Anthology 3 were superior to what was on LIB.

3) Another reason I'm not a big fan of LIB is because of the somewhat hypocritical nature of the album. This record was advertised as an album that was just like their earliest material, which meant no overdubs, among other things. There's nothing wrong with going back to your musical roots, but don't ignore the concept by hiring Mr. Wall-of-Sound himself, Phil Spector, to work on some of the tracks. The unaltered version of "The Long and Winding Road" (on Anthology 3) is vastly superior, and should have been on the original album.

4) Additionally, I like the single versions of "Let It Be" and "Get Back" more than their album counterparts. That's not really a criticism, just a personal preference.

5) Finally, I kind of wish the band had used the original cover for the album: an updated version of the Please Please Me cover. Just would've given a nice visual sense of closure to their career.

Don't get me wrong though. I don't hate Let It Be; for all the problems I have with it, it's a pretty good listen. And in the Beatles universe, "worse" translates into "better than some people's best." Considering how fractured the group's relationships with each other were at the time, it's a miracle this album even got released. I just prefer to think of Abbey Road as their "true" final album and view LIB as an interesting experiment.

Ah, thanks for letting me know about the McLachlan cover. With a voice like hers and great source material like "Blackbird," it'd pretty hard to screw it up. Nice to know she did a great job.

BTW: I asked this question in the "signature song" thread but didn't get a response, so I'll ask again. Ric, where did you get that drawing of the Beatles that is on your sig file?

Kevin, while I share your blah blah opionion of the "Let It Be" album, any and all the songs on that album is superior to:

"I'll Follow The Sun"
"Every Little Thing"
"I Don't Want To Spoil The Party" *
"Mr. Moonlight"



* My pick for the single worst Beatles song ever.

quote from mike broadman:
"I must say, I never understood the appeal of the White Album. It's experimental, but the experiments aren't particularly musical, just, I dunno, annoying."

i agree. i think that album is over rated. there are some great songs on it..."dear prudence" is probably my favorite.

"revolver" is DEFINITELY my favorite album. then after that i like all of them upto revolver in no particular order. they all have great songs. from sgt. pepper on i have no particular fave, though once again they all contain some great tunes.

Quote:

I can't stand their earlier stuff; it's more relevant because of its history. I mean, really, is there anything interesting in "I Wanna Hold Your Hand?"
-------------------------

I'm sorry I have to repond to that. Sure it has historical value, comparing all the pop that came out of America at the same time. I used to think like you, making there early stuff seem so insfantile compared to the later stuff like strawberry fields. But I have changed my opnion on that and consider songs like:
She Loves You
I want to hold your hand
I saw her standing there

I would put those three songs up against anything else they had written as being their finest work. The recordings were raw, and electric. The lyrics weren't so personal, but they are still enjoyable to listen and represent. It was dynamic, amazing they could create those recordings out of just the few basic instruments they played at the time.
If you can listen to the session tracks for ISHST, you might change your ind about the early stuff. They were playing live in the studio and playing their hearts out.

I do like all their later studio work, but I would never dismiss their early material. And as for their musical influences, the one thread was a little off. If you read all the official sources, they (J P and G) did not get into playing music seriously until Elvis came on the scene. If there was an influence that started them on the road, it was him.

i started listening to the beatles about four years ago. my friend had a mix tape he made and brought to work.

i tell ya i listened to that tape every night...it started driving everyone crazy!

i don't have a really big collection...just some of their greatest hits compilations. but i often find myself listening to them. i would definitely consider them for my d.i.d list.

i'm glad i've had the opportunity to listen to and appreciate all that these guys have done. i always promote them to whomever i can now.

Revolver is highly overrated!

My three favorite Beatles albums:

Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band
The Beatles
Abbey Road

Sgt. Pepper is my absolute favorite, with the White Album nipping at its heels.

-Tom

My goodness, people are digging up my ancient posts. I feel honored. You folks are fun.

Since I posted that stuff, I have been digging into some older rock, especially the Stones and such, and have been much more appreciative of "accessible" and popular music. However, my basic opinions on the Beatles stand.

The reason that people like MikeAW get contentious about the Beatles (although, in his case, a bit too enthusiastically for my tastes) is because they are considered gods, as if they fart jasmine scented farts or something. To me, they are just another band, albeit a good one.

In your defense of their earlier material, Anthony (although god knows you don't have to defend it; listen to what you like, and god bless), you didn't really address song composition and musicality. That's fine, it doesn't make it poor material. It was good, solid pop music of the early 60s. I just have absolutely no interest in early 60s pop music, good or bad. At that time, they were one of hundreds of English pop bands. It was after their initial success (based as much on image as music) that they expanded their music and developed some mean songwriting chops. This isn't an insult. Rather, a complement actually, since extremely few bands can go above and beyond the One Thing that made them famous.

The Beatles' early stuff just holds no interest for me.

MikeAW, I would say you're wrong about the "guy" contingency with the Beatles. They're one of the few bands that are huge with both genders. Heck, without the girlies screaming their heads off at them in concerts, they might not have been as big as they became. You just don't see women talking about them here because you never see women on the HTF at all (with of course a couple of exceptions. Ladies, don't think I've forgotten you ).

I also dislike Let It Be. It didn't have the Lennon/McCartney magic that some of the others did, and I find the material weak.

I also will be the first person to defend Revolver. Quite an amazing pop album.

And I still think the White Album totally blows. The Beatles, like the Black Crows, Blues Traveler, and Black Sabbath, just don't do well when they go outside playing tight, strong songs. Some groups, like the Allman Brothers, King Crimson, and Frank Zappa, are very interesting to listen to when they "stretch out." The Beatles just ain't one of 'em for me.

The Beatles albums that I own, listen to, and love:

Rubber Soul
Revolver
Sgt Pepper
Magical Mystery Tour
Abbey Road

With the exception of a couple of songs here and there, there isn't anything else by them that interests me.

So yes, it is possible to like the Beatles without worshippin them. I'm living proof. They were great, no question. They were influencial, of course. They are also overrated, IMO.

I agree. While I LOVE Revolver, it's not quite as good as Abbey Road or the Seagent, IMO of course. It's right up there, though...

Thanks whoever dug up this thread....

I recently got a new cartridge, and I dredged outmy Phillipino pressing of Sgt. Pepper and original Red Apple "Let it Be" and they both sound much better than I remembered... Ahh.... Beatles on vinyl... does it get better?

In the U.K. it was indeed. The equivalent U.S. album was called Beatles '65. I actually should have said the best song from the "sessions" for BFS. That's 2nd to last for me. Although the final Glyn Johns mix of the "Get Back" album is excellent. Once you remove the Phil Spector syrupy nonsense, the songs just come to life. Have you heard it?
From a friend of mine. Pretty cool sketch isn't it?

Philip,

Mr. Moonlight gets my vote for worst track. I can't to this day believe that they left off "Leave My Kitten Alone" for that!

I love the White Album, but what I love even more are the demos of the songs recorded at George's Mansion in Escher. They're fabulous.

For the Record my favorite Beatles Album is Abbey Road, followed very very closely by Rubber Soul.

Fav Track: Rain

Ugh! I'm going to pretend I didn't read that...

I'm also going to pretend I didn't read that...

Philip,

I'm with Ric in that "Mr. Moonlight" is the worse recording the Beatles have ever saw fit to release; plus "Spoil the Party" and "Every Little Thing" are pretty bland tunes. But I have a soft spot for "I'll Follow the Sun." Yeah, the melody and lyrics and beyond basic, but Paul sings it in such a charming, endearing way that I can't help but tap my foot along.

Now that I think about it, the second half of Beatles For Sale is rather weak, but I still love the album dearly, warts and all. Though I'll admit the main reason I heartily defend BFS is because it contains my second favorite Fab Four song, "No Reply"; I just love that part where John sings "If I were you..." and then the handclaps and Paul's harmony vocals come crashing in. Amazing. To paraphrase a quote from Almost Famous, it's the little things like that make the album worthwhile for me. Like another BFS tune, "Baby's In Black." Listen to that opening riff: it sounds like the song is about to careen out of control and it's barely started!

Ted,


By "hits compilations," I'm going to assume you mean One, Blue Album or Red Album. Let me say that you're doing this band a great disservice by sticking to the compilations...they barely scratch the surface of what this band is able to do. I highly suggest you start buying their albums...you won't regret it.

Ric,

I'm not really sure; if it was mixed in January 1969 and contains songs like "Save the Last Dance For Me," "Rocker" and the full version of "Dig It," then yeah. You are right: the mixes are far superior to what was officially released. It sure sounds more crisp than the sluggish feel of Let It Be.

Oh, and good call on those White Album demos: it makes me wonder why they didn't put all the demos on Anthology 3 instead of choosing a smattering of material to go on. Some great stuff to be found there.

And I think I'm breaking HTF policy by talking about these boots, so I'll refrain from doing so...

Very cool sketch! Though I can see your friend took some artistic license with Ringo's nose...

Oh, and my all-time favorite Beatles song:

"You Won't See Me" (from Rubber Soul)

Great Thread - learned quite a bit about the Boys from Liverpool.

While I believe great art should show greatness regardless of historical context, it is interesting to match the Beatles #1 hits with other #1 hits of the same time periods. My point: even though "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" may sound lame to new listeners of y2k+2, compare it to the popular songs of the time period. (Lawrence Welk anyone ?)

Their shock value to early 60's pop culture was on par with today's Marilyn Manson. (ok - pushing it a little..)

With that being said...

Why did John/Paul always split song-writing credits when it seems obvious most of their later work was practically solo ? To clarify my confusion, how can you write a song with someone if you are never in the studio at the same time ? Was it George Martin pulling everything together ?

Did Paul play the drum solo on Abbey Rd ?

Did John play Lead Guitar on the songs he wrote ?

Prost !

My favorite Album is Abbey Road. My favorite song might be "She Said, She Said", though. Or "In My Life". Maybe 100 others. I went through a week of listening to "You Know My Name..." almost exclusively.

Based on the fact that other bands are even mentioned in the same breath with The Beatles indicates to me that they're still sadly underrated. Hopefully, someday, people will see. No, I don't "worship" them, it's the music which is transcendant to me.



Nope, and it's not likely to in the foreseeable future. I'd love to be wrong, though.

Some one mentioned the I Am Sam soundtrack.
I've been listening to it for a couple of weeks now.
Normally, I don't like to hear covers of anything, but this ablum (for the most part) delivers solid performances that pay tibute to The Beatles instead of changing them.

It was an enjoyable read.
I'm 45. I used to pick up a baseball bat and pretend it was a guitar when I was in 4th grade. I wanted to be a Beatle.
Just like John Lennon watching the girls go nuts over Elvis and saying: "Now that looks like a good job!"
I learned to play guitar for the same reason. I played in lots of bands over the years. The most fun I have on stage is covering a Beatles song.


And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love,
you make.

"Mike, what's with the thread fart? Are you a musician? Have you ever studied music? Do you have any comprehension of the melodic and harmonic genius that is Lennon & McCartney? "

Philip

It may be genius music, but hey, I don't like "genius music", and in the end, it's just music.

I've listened to "Plastic Ono Band","All Things Must Pass",
and "Band On The Run"...and most of the studio sessions and outtakes of these albums. For "Plastic One Band"...there are John Lennon's song demos, for "All Things Must Pass"...there is a 3CD box set of session run throughs, outtakes and alternate mixes..for "Band On The Run"...song outtakes and live performances.

Compare those to the released album and you get an interesting perspective of just what was the starting point, creatively, for these releases. It's great to peep behind the scenes, but unfortunately it gives you an idea of just what would have happened if they'd have used the original takes or versions.

"All Things..." was alot of wasted unnecessary music. George always shined on the short, to the point songs. I mean what's up with "Apple Scruffs" ? Unless it was theraputic or something like that, what's the purpose, except personal ego satisfaction that he could sound cool? Listening to his back to reality songs demos for the "Cloud Nine" project is an instance where you think, why did the man feel, people were going to listen to songs titled
"Ding Dong" ? Well as much as he would deny it, it could be only because he was "George Beatle".

Just don't get me started on McCartney. I could write volumes on how the man is....well, I'm not going to go there.

Well thank God for small favors.

Because they were a team. They would each pull their own weight and sometimes pull the others weight as well when one of them was down. By splitting publishing rights, they ensured that both of them would always benefit from the creativity of the team.

For example, McCartney split songwriting credit with Lennon on "Yesterday", and Lennon split credit with Paul on "Ballad of John & Yoko".

No. But he did play them on "Ballad of John & Yoko".

Sometimes. The guitar lead line was usually split between George and John with either taking it. Sometimes one or the other played the lead in concert.

It was a 3 LP set. What's "wasted" and "unnecessary" to you is welcomed and enjoyed by many others. Even if you take the third LP out of the set altogether, ATMP was a MasterWork. And I guess I didn't realize that musicians needed your or anyone else's approval on the cuts they decided to release. Thanks for setting us straight there. Why are you even bothering to post in this thread? Masochism?

Huh??

Ok, I've probably only listened to Revolver five times all the way through at the max, so maybe it gets better with time. However, as of now I can't see how it compares with the White Album or Sgt. Pepper. I even like Rubber Soul better.

-Tom

Okay, this is bound to be the ultimate heresy to most Beatles fans, but...

I think Abbey Road is overrated!

Actually, I find myself appreciating it more after listening to the comments on the VH1 top albums countdown. That gave me a bit more perspective on it. I really had to say it, though, to get back at Tom Ryan and Philip Hamm for saying Revolver is overrated.

I highly prefer the Beatles material from '65-'67. I am definitely a fan of creative production and catchy pop hooks. Revolver, to me, represents the best combination of songwriting and stylistic innovation.

I have never really been big on the later Beatles period of '68/'69. Some of the songs were still pretty darn good, but they started going in the overblown direction a lot of rock music took in the 70s, which I'm not very fond of. And I just don't find a lot of interest in the Beatles going completely pastiche for songs like "Yer Blues" and "Oh! Darling." I've always preferred them as innovators.

I will say that George's work on Abbey Road is definitely some of his best, though. And just to fan the flames some more, I vastly prefer the original acoustic take of "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" to the drawn-out version on the White Album.

As if Johnny Rotten and Sid the Killer ever had a clue as to what makes music work. Bunch of zonked-out freaks who couldn't tie The Beatles - or anybody else's - shoes.

kevin -



lol - those are exactly the albums i have. i have heard revolver and abbey road, but boy...am i embarassed!

i'll have to dig deeper from here...

My Dad first got me into the Beatles when I was a young kid in the mid-70s. We used to listen to their LPs on stormy days and I loved listening to the music and preening the records. I can't wait to continue the tradition and share that same music with my daughter in a few years.

I had the priviledge of taking my Mom to see Paul McCartney in concert years later. It was amazing to see this middle-aged woman regress into a giddy teenager, acting alot like I'm sure she did when she saw the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan show for the first time.

Even though I like all of their stuff, the albums from Rubber Soul on are the ones I listen to the most. If I had to pick only one album to listen to, it would be Revolver. It was such a departure from their previous work and was a nice stepping stone to Sgt. Peppers and Magical Mystery Tour. I really enjoy George's Indian influence on Love You To, but my favorite song on the album is John's Tomorrow Never Knows.

I understand that everyone has different musical tastes, but anyone doubting their influence need only look at what their contemporaries said and wrote about them and anyone doubting their musicianship need only look at all the different styles they wrote in, the unusual chord progressions & keys they often used, and the innovative recording techniques & ideas they employed in the studio.

DJ

When I was 12 I made a mixed tape out of Revolver(UK) on side A and Rubber Soul(UK) on side B. Those are awesome albums. In fact, now I have the CD's but I still have to listen to Revolver/Rubber Soul in that order or it feels 'wrong'.

Another fav of mine is Past Masters Vol. 2. Actually, that's the first CD I ever heard, and was probably what got me hooked on the Beatles and A/V equipment!

Favorite tune: Taxman. Musically, it is straightforward sounding, but try to play McCartney's bass line for "If you drive a c-car.." section. That took me years to eventually figure out. And Ringo's oddly-timed fills are spot on.

Amazing albums, amazing work ethic from a band.

-JNS

Derek, I agree with you about "Abbey Road" it's just edited scraps and leavings of a band, in and pre-occupied with, their own death throes. There is no soul to it.

The Sex Pistols & Malcolm McClaren were the product of the malaise of music of the sixties and seventies. The Concept of the Group, had an acute understanding of the The Music Business, and was and aware of themselves as instruments of Change...to push the music forward, and in spite of it's stasis and state of constipation at the time. The group and it's cultivated "attitude" was a needed shot in the arm, that encouraged The Industry to invest in MANY new bands and genres of music.

With all of our Music Giants were gone or discipated, and knowing not where to go by this time other than thrashing out the same old crap, if it wasn't for the Sex Pistols, everyone would still be sitting on their fat arses
listening to "In Through The Out Door" and thinking it was something, well, important and groundbreaking. Or feeling Pete Townshend had something to contribute to music than that damn "Squeezebox" song. "Who Are You" was their final gurgling sound before The End...Moonies death just gave them a legitimate excuse to hang it all up...but they still didn't/don't get it...IT WAS OVER for them, and all the dinosaurs.

I must have a different pressing.


Much of Paul's work is just the opposite, absolutely perfect from a composition standpoint (he's truly one of the best), but technically something Geddy Lee might play in his sleep. I never tried to play that part, though. This kind of stuff is what is completely missed by the non-musician types, and why musicians tend to hold The Beatles in higher regard than anyone.

"This kind of stuff is what is completely missed by the non-musician types, and why musicians tend to hold The Beatles in higher regard than anyone." Jack

To me, it may give you more insight and the ability to appreciate more than the layperson...but it gives one just a different perspective to appreciate....not an extratrodinarily authoritative one, in the sense, that a technician's opinion, may have more authority over one person or another.

As for my comments on "Abbey Road", pick up a book titled..."Inside Tracks : A First-Hand History of Popular Music from the World's Greatest Record Producers and Engineers" by Richard Buskin....it has some insightful interviews on the Beatles recording process, specifically with George Martin, Geoff Emerick and a couple of other Abbey Road engineers, one of whom worked on "Abbey Road", that are not that famous to the general public. Very interesting.

The book also has interviews with Jimmy Miller, Mickey Most, Bruce Botnick, Jerry Wexler, Quincy Jones, Giorgio Moroder, Sam Phillips. A good buy !