The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

Re: The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

I know this is a "music area" thread, but this seems to be the only current Beatles thread, so I will ask my question here:

On the DVD "Anthology," the scene just before All Together Now starts, where Lennon (with his three lads) is looking through a telescope, and is pretending to be terrified because he sees the Blue Meanies. His mates ask, "what can we do?" Lennon says, "the only thing we can do. Sing!"

What film is that clip originally from? Yellow Submarine was a cartoon, so it couldn't be from that.

Re: The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

Actually, it is from Yellow Submarine, at the very end of the movie.

Re: The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

it seems funny to me that, despite all the problems and disagreements the band members had with one another, they still held onto the promise of including both their names on any song written by either Paul or John. Paul was pissed about Yoko being in the studio; John was adament about having Yoko in the studio; who walked out, who threatened what, didn't matter - the original pact stayed about any song including Lennon/McCartney.

Shoot, Lennon even went so far as to include his solo single, Give Peace A Chance, as a McCartney co-write.

Guess things were different in those days. There's no honor nowadays. For all the bad things people say about the 1960's, they conveniently forget about the good things. Like honoring an unwritten pact. Also gone now is the discreetness newspaper and magazine reporters had if they knew something juicy (or was that just reserved for "public officials?")

Re: The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought there were some legal issues surrounding the use of Lennon/McCartney on each song that was written by one of them regardless of the other's involvement or lack thereof.

Re: The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

I don't think there was any legal obligation...I actually have an article strictly about their song publishing so I can check it out later.

Speaking of "Give Peace a Chance," I'm sure everyone remembers the huge controversy McCartney/Lennon controversy a few years back. But what nobody seems to realize is that, as early as 1990, Yoko Ono had removed Paul's name from "Give Peace a Chance."

Re: The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

I also recall, fairly recently in fact, that Paul tried to do the same with all the songs he wrote without John, but Yoko wouldn't allow that.

Re: The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

I recall the story being that Paul wanted to change the songwriting credit on "Yesterday" to McCartney/Lennon for a compilation that he wanted to put out. He offered to remove his name from "Give Peace a Chance" to Yoko in exchange, but she refused.

Re: The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

No, Macca never tried to eliminate Lennon's name from all of his Beatle songs. He just wanted to make some of them "McCartney/Lennon" instead of "Lennon/McCartney". This was the proverbial much ado about nothing, since Macca had already done this once: the songs on "Wings Over America" are credited to "McCartney/Lennon". So when John was alive, apparently it didn't bug him.

But Macca NEVER tried to drop John's name completely...

Re: The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

Here's a question I have about songs, and how they're created in the studio. I will concede that either Lennon or McCartney wrote their song - the jist of the song: melody/lyrics. If it was a McCartney composition, Lennon would say he wrote "the middle eight," let's just say. But don't George and Ringo have some input to how their roles are played out on a song? If George comes up with a neat solo on the guitar and if Ringo figures out the drum beat, shouldn't their names be added to a song's creation?

You got four members of a band working on songs. In the early days of The Doors, all members of the group had a credit to every song...it was only when Robby Krieger penned a song in later years and, because Morrison didn't dig the song, he didn't want his name associated with it.

Re: The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

how many think that the Let It Be album would have greatly benefitted by having Come And Get It?

Re: The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

So...anybody heard anything about album remasters? You figure in this age of double-dipping somebody would've come up with the idea of remastering the albums or rereleasing them in deluxe editions (e.g. stereo and mono mixes).

Re: The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

I can't believe I missed this thread. Thanks for reviving it. Unfortunately, I don't have any useful information for the post above this one.

But, by way of introduction to my love for the Fab Four--

I have been a collector of Beatles recordings since 1969. I own roughly 250 LPs (originating from approximately twenty different countries). I also own around 125 CDs, including alternate takes of just about every song 1962-1970. I also own around thirty books on the group, a wonderful signed picture of Johh, Paul, George, and Pete (signed by Pete Best), and have a very good friend who is close personal friends with Pete Best.

I am also priviledged to have spoken frequently and recently with various Beatles scholars both in the States and in Britain. It's a joy to read their insights, which are in many cases based in years of research and love for the group and their music. I am looking forward to reading about various Beatles interests and musings in this thread.

Buttmunker,

For my own part, I have always thought that the Beatles were all responsible for all of their work provided they were still together. (At least that is how I have treated their entire body of work 1962-ish to 1970.) I know that doesn't make much sense for songs like Yesterday (as George Martin would say, "It isn't really a Beatles song") and for many of the tracks on The Beatles (i.e., "The White Album"); however, I have maintained for years that John, Paul, George, and Ringo were each one full quarter of the Fab Four regardless of who wrote a particular song. Of course, if not all of them are performing on a given tune, I might have a difficult time proving it's a 'Beatles' track. But for convenience, I still refer to all songs as Beatles tracks. Even songs like Don't Bother Me (George), I consider to be a Beatles tune (rather than a George tune). And for songs like I'm Happy Just to Dance With You (written primarily by John and Paul, but given to George to sing) and (e.g.) Do You Want to Know a Secret, I still think "Beatles" rather than one or two members of the group.

Colin,

Agreed. And somewhat interesting from an historical standpoint is that at least one early iteration of the Please Please Me album contained many of the songs they wrote (excluding covers, obviously) credited to McCartney-Lennon. They must have agreed to the name reversal at some point; heck, maybe it was done for alphabetical reasons.

Re: The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

I think I read somewhere that Lady Madonna was just Paul with studio musicians. True or false?

Add: tracks from "White Album" basically mostly solo work?

Re: The Eternal Beatles Discussion Thread

Buttmunker,

I would say many of the tracks on The Beatles ("The White Album") are basically solo, or largely independent projects with help added at a late stage of development.

I don't know who plays what on Lady Madonna, but I will check Everett to see what he has to say about it. The brass section is not John, George, and Ringo, obviously. Doesn't Ringo play the percussion at least?

Okay, here is what W. Everett has to say about the instrumentation (and who plays what) on Lady Madonna. Please note that within the text below there are a half dozen or so embedded references (provided by Everett within his text) that I have not included. I would be happy to send those along at a later time if you wish.

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"McCartney is quoted as saying, 'I was looking through this African magazine, and I saw this African lady with a baby. And underneath the picture it said "Mountain Madonna." But I said, 'Oh no, "Lady Madonna,"' and I wrote the song. The resulting lyrics, like those of "Fixing a Hole," are puzzling, and other writers' explanations of the central figure as destitute, prostitute, and even McCartney's mother, a nurse, are not wholly satisfying." As Lennon complains, "The song never really went anywhere," and as with many McCartney lyrics, a neat interpretation does not seem possible or desirable. We may need only accept that the litany of days of the week is McCartney's way of simultaneously marking time and drawing from his rock-and-roll heritage, as it is done in "Rock Around the Clock" and "Reelin' & Rockin'," and also a vague indication that the Lady has day-to-day cares that invite sympathy.

When the Beatles heard McCartney's piano part and learned that he had based it on "Bad Penny Blues" by the Humphrey Lyttleton band, a traditional jazz (or "trad jazz") recording produced by George Martin in 1956, they wanted to build their arrangement around that model. Martin suggested that Ringo use brushes. The drummer: "So I used brushes and we did a track with just brushes and the piano and then we decided we needed an off-beat. So we put an off-beat on it and Paul decided to sing it in his sort-of Elvis voice. The period sound was also invoked by the low-fidelity vocal brass imitation (McCartney, Lennon, and Harrison cupped their hands around their mouths for the backing scat vocals at C and F), the addition of two tenor and two baritone saxophones, playing McCartney's suggested lines, all in unison--but including a tenor solo at F by Ronnie Scott, and the use of a distortion-inducing inexpensive microphone along with "heavy compression and limiting" on the piano part.

The basic track--McCartney's piano and Starr's brushing (left)--was followed on Tracks 2 and 3 with several overdubs, all made in Studio Three on February 3. McCartney played a distorted Rickenbacker, and Lennon and Harrison also used distortion on their unison guitars, probably the Casino and the SG, respectively. The guitars were played through the same overdriven amplifier. Ringo's drums marking the off-beat (all heard right). On Track 4, Paul recorded his Elvis-like lead vocals, and John and George provided their "pa-pa-pa" backing vocals, with tambouring at F (all center). The tape was reduced on February 6 to allow for separate double-tracked vocal and piano from McCartney (now inaudible), the "See how they run!" refrain from all three singers, handclaps, and saxes (center, performed in the immense Studio One). The mono mix was done on February 15, the stereo not until December 2, 1969, for the Hey Jude compilation. The final piano chord is abruptly abbreviated, as it was spoiled by a sol-mi-do-te scatted by the composer; it survives only in a mix made before the February 6 additions including a Lennon Hammond part (as heard on Beatles 1991m)."

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See W. Everett, The Beatles As Musicians: Revolver Through the Anthology (New York: Oxford University Press, 1999) pp. 153-154.

The modal mixture and the verse structure of the tune are discussed elsewhere in Everett's fine work on the subject.

N.B.: Beyond what I have provided here, Everett references the tune also on pp. 149-150, 155, 159, 164, 181, 213, 220, 240, 279, 294, 313, 321 (nn. 1), 339 (nn. 166), 342 (nns. 15 and 17-18).