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RAF's Grammar Rant Wiki

#1
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10/5/09 at 8:35am
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Administrator Robert Fowkes has written an HTF wiki on improper grammar usage.

A couple of points intrigue me.  The first is his use of a capital "I" when describing the internet. 

Quote:
Yes, the Internet can be a wonderful place for information and communication.

While this has become an interesting topic of discussion among grammarians, I fall on the side of the argument that even though the word has evolved into a noun which refers to a specific thing, the English language doesn't currently capitalize similar nouns such as radio and television.  We wouldn't say:  "Yes, Television can be a wonderful place..."

The other involves the "quote/unquote" issue.  It was always my belief that, rather than "unquote" the term was "endquote" to match the name of the second quotation mark used to close the quoted material.  I think the evolution of the term to "unquote" is just another example of the sloppy diction/hearing which is responsible for my biggest grammatical pet peeve currently in vogue on the HTF:  "of" in place of "have."

An example:  "I 'should of' written that sentence differently so that I 'might of' had a funner time making my point."    It seems to be showing up more and more often across the boards. 

There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

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#2
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10/5/09 at 8:44am
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I find myself referring to this guide far too frequently...

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/621/01/


- Walter.

Fidelity to the source should always be the goal for Blu-ray releases.

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#3
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10/5/09 at 8:47am
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Mike,

Interesting.  On a related note, my literary agent told me recently that ending sentences with prepositions seems to be acceptable (and in some case preferable) to publishers.  She said that when a sentence becomes 'awkward,' then using a preposition at the conclusion is fine.

Example: 

"... with which to keep track." (Perhaps grammatically correct, but not preferred)

" ... to keep track of." (Preferred)

I don't agree with it, but she's calling the shots and is promoting my book.  So, I abide by her wishes in this matter. ;)

Another one that is very ugly for me to hear (and it has become quite common even in print) is:

"Where's the cars?"

and

 

"There's the boys."

Sometimes, I reverse it when speaking to people, and they look at me in confusion:

For example, "Where are my car?" or "There are the dog." ;)

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#4
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10/5/09 at 8:53am
  • Joined: October 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem View Post

On a related note, my literary agent told me recently that ending sentences with prepositions seems to be acceptable (and in some case preferable) to publishers.  She said that when a sentence becomes 'awkward,' then using a preposition at the conclusion is fine.

...

I don't agree with it, but she's calling the shots and is promoting my book.  So, I abide by her wishes in this matter. ;)

 


Any good author knows to listen closely to their agents and publisher!    My wife is dealing with those very dynamics right now! 

I, on the other hand, refuse to bend on that issue...as evidenced by this sentence I just wrote a few minutes ago:

Quote:
RAF has written a wiki to which I thought I would like to respond. 



There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

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#5
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10/5/09 at 9:02am
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I assume you all know the famous observation attributed to Churchill?
 


Quote:

 

Do not end a sentence with a preposition. That is something up with which I will not put.
 

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#6
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10/5/09 at 9:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post

Any good author knows to listen closely to their agents and publisher!    My wife is dealing with those very dynamics right now! 
 

Mike,

Exactly.  It may pay off (literally) for me in the long run. :)
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#7
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10/5/09 at 9:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem View Post

Exactly.  It may pay off (literally) for me in the long run. :)

Good luck to you.  It is very much a roller coaster ride of an experience.

There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

Top Ten Ways to Find Good Deals on DVDs and Blu-ray...
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#8
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10/5/09 at 9:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post




Good luck to you.  It is very much a roller coaster ride of an experience.
 

Thanks.  I am enjoying it immensely thus far.  Having an agent whom is very responsive and critical (in a positive sense) is enjoyable.  It also pushes me to do my best work.

I have a contract for another book I'm working on, and I do not require an agent for that one as it is more academic in nature.
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#9
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10/5/09 at 9:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben View Post

I assume you all know the famous observation attributed to Churchill?
 



 

LOL!  Yes, I do.  :)

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#10
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10/5/09 at 9:25am
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Mike,

My good friend has some neat things to contribute.  Now I have to get him to join the HTF ! :)

"Quote/Unquote" is oral -- it makes sense when one says it.  In formal writing, "endquote" might be better -- more precise -- but usually there is a rewriting route around the whole issue.  I've observed that many books apparently use a different style guide than magazines or academic papers, when it comes to quotes.  Books, I think, mostly use double-quotes to represent direct speech, and single-quotes to represent anything else -- paraphrasing for example.  In papers and articles, I think it's a different ruleset.

 

Should have/Must have...: "Should of" etc. is a barbarism, but language won't be confined.  Careful old fogies like you and I will stick to our lasts, and then when we are gone, the kids will need a translator for folks who first learned  their craft in the twentieth century.  Poke around in some late nineteenth century sentences -- not by Mark Twain -- to see what I mean.


Capital "I" for internet doesn't bother me, I think it is fine.  Reifying abstract nouns is always a problem.  Television isn't a place, any more than I/internet is.  I find myself slipping down that hole sometimes as well, when having to talk about market sectors or niches -- e.g., "such-and-such space."  It's icky but sometimes the battle for clarity is exhausting, and time pressure triumphs over exactitude -- and elegance -- in expression.

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#11
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10/5/09 at 9:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem View Post

Capital "I" for internet doesn't bother me, I think it is fine. 


I find more than a bit of irony in the way you wrote that sentence, Scott! 

There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

Top Ten Ways to Find Good Deals on DVDs and Blu-ray...
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#12
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10/5/09 at 12:11pm
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Quote:
Let me make myself clear. I’m not talking about the special language that text messaging has foisted upon us due, in part, to the need for speed and brevity. Things like “RUOK? PCM. CU L8R. THNQ” were born out of necessity before unlimited texting was affordable and widespread

I think it's funny that people always point to text messaging as the cause of these abbreviations. The truth is these started long before text messaging was even capable. These started on various chat boards in the BBS days. It was text messaging that brought it to the forefront of the general public, however.

Personally I don't mind the "quote/unquote" usage that much. This originated from the hand signal usage of quotes, which can't be used when there's no visual to go with the speech. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "quote something unquote." That sounds really cumbersome to me. I don't think either of those terms are grammatically correct as it should never be used in printed text. It is strictly for verbal speech. As such I think "quote/unquote" gets the point across better than RAF's version.

My personal rant for incorrect grammar is the usage of "loose" to mean "lose." This is clearly not a simple typo as it's usage is so common on the discussion boards. I could easily point to well over a hundred examples on HTF alone. One does not loose the game if they don't win, they lose it. The pronunciations are even different between these words, so I find it quite strange that this problem is so pervasive.

I can easily forgive typos and unintentional grammatical mistakes. It's these (hopefully unknowing) intentional mistakes that annoy me.
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#13
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10/5/09 at 1:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post




I find more than a bit of irony in the way you wrote that sentence, Scott! 

Mike,

I'd love to say that it was intentional on my part. ;)

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#14
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10/5/09 at 7:22pm
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Myself, I don't care at all about spelling on the internet, it's just the internet. As long as I get the point, that's all that matters. I laugh a little at those who get upset and grammer issues on the net. Seriously, it's just the internet. It's not that important.

Sometime's you reach what's real by making believe.

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#15
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10/5/09 at 9:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-P View Post

Myself, I don't care at all about spelling on the internet, it's just the internet. As long as I get the point, that's all that matters. I laugh a little at those who get upset and grammer issues on the net. Seriously, it's just the internet. It's not that important.
 

In my experience, correct spelling and grammar aren't occasional things. You either know them or you don't -- and if you know them, they dictate how you write and speak. People who can't manage them when it's not "important" usually can't manage them at all.

(I'm not the best example either, because my typing has deteriorated over the years. What I know and what ends up on the page frequently don't match.  )

I agree, though, that there's no point in getting upset over other people's linguistic failings.
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#16
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10/5/09 at 9:37pm
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This:

Quote:
An example:  "I 'should of' written that sentence differently so that I 'might of' had a funner time making my point."    It seems to be showing up more and more often across the boards. 

Makes me think of Benntt Brauer: http://www.hulu.com/watch/2331/saturday-night-live-update---bennett-brauer 




HTF Rules 
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#17
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10/6/09 at 11:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben View Post



In my experience, correct spelling and grammar aren't occasional things. You either know them or you don't -- and if you know them, they dictate how you write and speak. People who can't manage them when it's not "important" usually can't manage them at all.

(I'm not the best example either, because my typing has deteriorated over the years. What I know and what ends up on the page frequently don't match.  )

I agree, though, that there's no point in getting upset over other people's linguistic failings.

Oh, I admit, I completely suck at spelling and grammar, but I also don't care, that's just me. If someone has an issue with it, oh well. I don't spend, nor do I like to, hours on the internet at a time. I log on, post my thoughts and checkout. If somethings spelled wrong, oh well, as long as my point gets across, it's all good.

Back in my school days I was much more caring as I was being graded. For me it comes down to what I am doing and how careful I need to be. For the internet, I don't need to be careful or caring much about my spelling and grammar.

Sometime's you reach what's real by making believe.

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#18
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10/6/09 at 1:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-P View Post

For the internet, I don't need to be careful or caring much about my spelling and grammar.

And that's one of the things I find most interesting about this discussion:  the different levels of importance individuals place on how they are perceived by others through their written communications skills on the internet.  I'm sure volumes have been written in academia on the subject. 

For me (and I don't mean to propose that means I feel others should feel likewise) it is very important to me that I use proper spelling, capitalization, punctuation and grammar when composing posts on the HTF, e-mails, etc.  I really care that people don't think I'm careless with the rules that guide the English language.  But, then again, I'm in the field of communications. 

I have this disagreement with my wife all the time.  She's a writer, but thinks nothing of sending me e-mails in all-lower-case.  I tell her I think I should be important enough to her to get her to occasionally use the shift key on her keyboard! 

One of the things I like about the HTF is that most members have a pretty good capacity with the language.  I see misspellings, typos and the like all the time but don't feel the need to call people out on them.  That's not my job. 


There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

Top Ten Ways to Find Good Deals on DVDs and Blu-ray...
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#19
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10/6/09 at 5:09pm
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The way I look at it is if someone wants me to take their opinions seriously they should take the time to write properly. I won't call them out on it but I'll probably just not read their post.

We usually don't have that problem here, for the most part.
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#20
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10/6/09 at 6:16pm
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People should write the same way that they talk. If everybody spoke and wrote with out breaking or bending the rules, language and cultures would have a hard time changing and evolving with the times. We would all be still speaking in colonial English in the USA.  I was born and raised in NJ in between the Philly and NY accents and now live in KY with the southern and country ways of speaking. These differences are what gives the cultures their individuality and should be communicated in how they post.
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#21
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10/6/09 at 10:08pm
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Accents are different, though.
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#22
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10/7/09 at 9:04am
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Yes the accent is but the wording is also. For instance:

You guys need to talk correctly - NJ
You all need to talk correctly - Southern
Y'all need to talk correctly - Country

But don't look to me as anything near an expert when it comes to this.

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#23
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10/7/09 at 2:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drobbins View Post

Yes the accent is but the wording is also. For instance:

You guys need to talk correctly - NJ
You all need to talk correctly - Southern
Y'all need to talk correctly - Country

But don't look to me as anything near an expert when it comes to this.
 

Youse guys need to shaddup already - Da Bronx 

There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

Top Ten Ways to Find Good Deals on DVDs and Blu-ray...
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#24
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10/7/09 at 5:20pm
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I'd contend that "y'all" is southern, while I'm not sure what "you all" would be considered.

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#25
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10/7/09 at 6:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem View Post


(...)
Having an agent whom is very responsive and critical (in a positive sense) is enjoyable. 
(....)

So she wouldn't agree with that line, or would she?


Cees
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#26
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10/7/09 at 7:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons View Post




So she wouldn't agree with that line, or would she?


Cees
 

Cees,

Why do you ask?
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#27
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10/7/09 at 9:27pm
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Quote:
But language is a treacherous thing, a most unsure vehicle, and it can seldom arrange descriptive words in such a way that they will not inflate the facts--by help of the reader's imagination, which is always ready to take a hand and work for nothing, and do the bulk of it at that.
--Mark Twain

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#28
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10/7/09 at 10:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem View Post

Cees,

Why do you ask?

I believe someone is yanking your grammatical chain, Scott. 


There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

Top Ten Ways to Find Good Deals on DVDs and Blu-ray...
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#29
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10/8/09 at 6:20am
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Mark Twain is my best friend's favorite author.

Mike,

Yes, I understand that now. ;)
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#30
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10/8/09 at 6:26am
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I am a technical writer.  My company's style guide has decried that we have a Web site (capital "W").  Bugs me.


Quote:
The diference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between the lightning and the lightning bug.
 

-- Mark Twain

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