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Dollhouse - season 2

#61
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I loved the way Boyd and Topher "cleaned the scene. Shade of Harvey Keitel! And I love the subversive Echo subplot. What a terrific episode. I wish all of them were this good.

One of my methods to become debt-free. Thanks, Dave Ramsey!
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#62
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It reminded me a whole lot of Season 1 "Breaking Bad"
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#63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikah Cerucco View Post

As for what type of freak a guy must be to be unable to get a woman based solely on his wealth, I'll admit that wealth is a wonder aphrodisiac, but I'd like to think there's more to a woman than that.
 


Yes, there is more to a woman than just wanting money. However in these case of dollhouse clients, that has nothing to do with it. The clients are getting a fake that's programmed to think that they like them. To me, there's little to no difference between someone who is 'forced' to be attracted to someone for a day or two and someone who is just faking interest for money.

Quote from Cameron "It wasn't that he couldn't get a woman, it's that he couldn't get Priya/Sierra."

In this case but speaking more generally, the majority of the dollhouse clients are seeing different girls (presumably so the clients don't fall for an operative). That just leads me back to the question of what kind of kinks must these guys have that they need a brain washed woman over a regular high class hooker who will say or do anything for the right price.
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#64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
That just leads me back to the question of what kind of kinks must these guys have that they need a brain washed woman over a regular high class hooker who will say or do anything for the right price.

They touched on that when the show began - it's one thing to have someone say they love you as they are playing a part, but it's another to have someone actually know and believe it with every fiber of their being. For the doll, it IS real, and that is what makes all the difference.


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#65
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When men call call girls they're not expecting the woman of their dreams. These men of means certainly have plenty of options for companionship open to them, but it isn't the right companionship. A call girl might be able to fake interest, but if you're a trader, is she going to fake knowledge of technical vs fundamental analysis? If you're a politician, is she going to fake mastery of how to make friends and influence people? Dollhouse is a completely different game, and I think the desire for companionship the rich male clientele has extends beyond a good roll in the hay with a pretty woman. They don't just want someone who fakes interest in them, they want someone they find interesting, and by golly they're willing to pay to have her created if she doesn't already exist.

Studios, caption your internet streams.

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#66
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Fantastic episode. The confrontation between Nolan and Sierra in "Needs" hinted at something really dark and twisted, and this episode gave us the payoff. It also said so much about the Dollhouse staff, and we got our first glimpse into Echo's agenda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikah Cerucco View Post

There's the small matter of a contract and choice. The Dollhouse employees have been able to labor under the protective umbrella of choice. The dolls agreed to do these things (even though they didn't know what things they'd be doing) for a period of time in exchange for something. None of them, that we know of, agreed to do in perpetuity -- until now.

 
Exactly. This episode actually calls into question the flashbacks we'd seen in "Epitaph One". When Rossum Corp. revised its business model to sell the dolls as a form of immortality, DeWitt balked and threatened to walk out. That was presumably the first time the "rules" of the Dollhouse were violated in such a serious way. Thursday's episode presents basically the same dilemma: DeWitt and Topher were under the impression that Sierra was a mentally ill woman who was being granted a reprieve from insanity by being transformed into a doll. Once Topher uncovered that this was not the case, DeWitt was presented for the first time with the "rules" of the Dollhouse being violated. She protested and threatened to quit here, too, and the Rossum guy again called her bluff.

There is a big difference between indentured servitude and slavery. The second is expressly forbidden by the United States Consitution, for one thing, while the first is forbidden only when said servitude is involuntary. The rest of the dolls (presumably) signed a three-year contract like Caroline did. The would who became Sierra never had that choice.
 

In theory, the Dollhouse has had responsibilities to the dolls. When the contract is over, they should be no worse off then they were before. For instance, they wouldn't let smoeone sign up to murder a doll. They wouldn't allow someone to sign up to perform a hysterectomy on a doll. Or have sex with a doll and give her HIV/AIDS. Sending a doll off to be a permanent slave isn't in the charter. The writers rightly pointed out, however, that the Dollhouse employees have long since compromised any grounds to make a moral stand.


What DeWitt in fact pointed out was that the Dollhouse employees were chosen because they were already compromised morally before they stepped through the door. Squeaky clean people can work in such a morally bankrupt environment. And while the Dollhouse makes every effort to protect its assets, there's no 100 percent way to ensure that no harm comes to them. Signing away three years of one's life is a risk.
 

As for what type of freak a guy must be to be unable to get a woman based solely on his wealth, I'll admit that wealth is a wonder aphrodisiac, but I'd like to think there's more to a woman than that. Perhaps there are tons of women out there these guys could get, but they don't have the qualities the guys are looking for (and that extends beyond just looks). Surely we as a society don't still buy the  notion that money buys happiness. There are plenty of wealthy guys with lots of options who call on call girls. The reasons are many, but they're valid reasons beyond "freaky". Maybe it's worth the money not to sit through an exciting discussion about the latest episode of Desperate Housewives.


Nolan Kinnard was Rossum's prize pet, a unique asset that provided services that no other asset could provide. Since Rossum is an essentially God-like organization, Nolan was extended essentially God-like influence. At the point where he met the woman who would become Sierra, it had probably been a long time since anyone had said "no" to him. He couldn't stand it. Ironically, the best way for Sierra to free herself from Nolan would have been to indulge his infatuation until he tired of her and cast her aside. By turning him down, she ensured that he would settle for nobody else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Orr View Post

I loved the way Boyd and Topher "cleaned the scene. Shade of Harvey Keitel! And I love the subversive Echo subplot. What a terrific episode. I wish all of them were this good.

I loved everything that scene said about the character histories for Boyd and Topher. Boyd is arguably the most moral of the Dollhouse staff, but if his expertise in disappearing murder scenes is any indication he might also have the dirtiest past. Topher is arguably the least moral of the Dollhouse staff -- if something repulses him, you know it's really bad -- but his discomfort at dissembling and dissolving Nolan's body made it clear that he has no experience with getting his hands dirty.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Boyd had Topher do the dirty work, either. He's the best kind of teacher, the type that knows when his students need to experience horrible things to comprehend the lessons they need to learn. Boyd couldn't let Topher forget that he turned the real woman behind Sierra into a murderer, even though Boyd himself probably condoned the decision.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post

Yes, there is more to a woman than just wanting money. However in these case of dollhouse clients, that has nothing to do with it. The clients are getting a fake that's programmed to think that they like them. To me, there's little to no difference between someone who is 'forced' to be attracted to someone for a day or two and someone who is just faking interest for money.


The difference is night and day. Maybe not on a moral plane -- if anything, "renting" the dolls is far worse -- but from an experience standpoint. The best escorts make the exorbinant amounts of money because they are the most skilled actresses. Prostitution is often about creating an illusion, to fill in something missing in the client's real life. In addition to providing valuable skillsets on demand, the Dollhouses perfect that illusion. For the length of the contract, the experience shared between the client and the doll is completely real. The persona crafted from Frankenstein parts is naturally everything the client needs or desires. They are not 'forced' to be attracted; they are designed to be attracted. If anything, it's the clients that are performing a role since they must fulfill whatever scenerio the doll has been imprinted to expect.
 

That just leads me back to the question of what kind of kinks must these guys have that they need a brain washed woman over a regular high class hooker who will say or do anything for the right price.


Except for the horny male looking for a quicky to satisfy carnal needs, everyone who seeks out a hooker has kinks or something missing in his life. The clients of the Dollhouse merely have greater means with which to compensate.

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#67
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 According to a recent story over on tvsquad.com, Dollhouse has been officially canceled. All of season 2 will be broadcast however.

http://www.tvsquad.com/2009/11/11/fox-cancels-dollhouse/

-Keith
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#68
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http://www.thefutoncritic.com/news.aspx?id=8381
Quote:
 
[11.11.09 - 12:48 PM]
FOX TO CAP "DOLLHOUSE" SEASON AT 13 EPISODES
By Brian Ford Sullivan (TFC)

LOS ANGELES (thefutoncritic.com) -- FOX has passed on ordering additional episodes of "Dollhouse," network sources have confirmed to the site.

The network however was quick to stress the series hasn't been canceled as they are simply capping its second season at 13 episodes. The show's fate will then ultimately be decided sometime next year.

As previously announced, "Dollhouse" will return with back-to-back episodes on December 4, 11 and 18 before resuming its regular Friday, 9:00/8:00c slot on January 8.

The news comes as FOX preps its midseason schedule, which is expected to be announced soon.

[UPDATED: The Hollywood Reporter's story indicates it has indeed been canceled, meaning we were just given the company line of never actually admitting something is canceled. We apologize for any false hope this story may inadvertently generate.]

There was a bit of confusion until that update clarified the story about Fox blowing smoke a bit.
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#69
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Joss says on Whedoneque:


Hmm. Apparently my news is not news.

I don't have a lot to say. I'm extremely proud of the people I've worked with: my star, my staff, my cast, my crew. I feel the show is getting better pretty much every week, and I think you'll agree in the coming months. I'm grateful that we got to put it on, and then come back and put it on again.

I'm off to pursue internet ventures/binge drinking. Possibly that relaxation thing I've read so much about. By the time the last episode airs, you'll know what my next project is. But for now there's a lot of work still to be done, and disappointment to bear.

Thank you all for your support, your patience, your excellent adverts. See you again. -j.

"Scientists are saying the future is going to be far more futuristic than they originally predicted." -Krysta Now

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#70
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Now that it's officially over I hope Whedon goes on to make something much better.

"Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now... and so we'll hunt him... because he can take it... because he's not a hero... he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector... a DARK KNIGHT."

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#71
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I'm looking forward to a sequel to Dr. Horrible. That is by far the best work the Whedon family has made in the past couple of years. I ignored it for the longest time, but finally bought the DVD. And then the soundtrack. And next, the comic book one-shot (even though I realize that the comic book will be silent). So much fun.

"Scientists are saying the future is going to be far more futuristic than they originally predicted." -Krysta Now

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#72
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YAY!!! Fox has canceled Dollhouse. This is what Fox gets for canceling Sarah Connor Chronicles.

I think anyone who creates a television series should avoid Fox like the plague. They have an indefinite hatred for sci-fi shows. Take a look:

Firefly --- Canceled
Angel ---- Canceled
Sarah Connor Chronicles ---- Canceled
Dollhouse ---- Canceled

Notice how Fox is constantly canceling any television show created by Joss Whedon? I think Mr. Whedon needs to look at other networks because it's obvious that Fox has a lot of antipathy toward this man. It's funny how th,ey canceled SCC in favor of Dollhouse considering that Dollhouse's ratings were weaker than Sarah, Connor Chronicles. Serves them right.
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#73
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I noticed another conspiracy too -- every Fox show that isn't currently airing was cancelled by Fox.

I'll miss the show, but I'm at a complete loss as to why anyone expects Fox to continue airing a show if enough people aren't watching. Maybe Joss should realize he's a niche guy and he needs to find a way to create shows with budgets that fit his niche audience. Or maybe he wants to keep trying for big budget shows hoping he'll one day strike gold. That's fine if that's his cup of tea, but there's no point in fans blaming Fox if he can't deliver.

Studios, caption your internet streams.

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#74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Talmadge View Post

YAY!!! Fox has canceled Dollhouse. This is what Fox gets for canceling Sarah Connor Chronicles.

I think anyone who creates a television series should avoid Fox like the plague. They have an indefinite hatred for sci-fi shows. Take a look:

Firefly --- Canceled
Angel ---- Canceled
Sarah Connor Chronicles ---- Canceled
Dollhouse ---- Canceled

Notice how Fox is constantly canceling any television show created by Joss Whedon? I think Mr. Whedon needs to look at other networks because it's obvious that Fox has a lot of antipathy toward this man. It's funny how th,ey canceled SCC in favor of Dollhouse considering that Dollhouse's ratings were weaker than Sarah, Connor Chronicles. Serves them right.
ANGEL was never on Fox, it was on The WB. Fox the Television network has nothing to do with Fox the studio who produced the show.

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#75
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Do you REALLY think any other network would've given Dollhouse a chance even?  You have to give Fox a ton of credit for taking a huge gamble on Whedon in the first place, and secondly especially for this season for giving them a second year.

Say what you want about Fox cancelling shows too, but they've gotten a lot better about letting the full order finish to give us at least some sort of closure, and even giving both Terminator and Dollhouse a second year to try and develop, when quite frankly neither really had the viewers to deserve it.
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#76
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Originally Posted by Joe_H View Post

Do you REALLY think any other network would've given Dollhouse a chance even?
 


Or Firefly. While Fox canned it after 13 episodes, those 13 episodes wouldn't exist without them.
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#77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Talmadge View Post

YAY!!! Fox has canceled Dollhouse. This is what Fox gets for canceling Sarah Connor Chronicles.


"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." I preferred "T:SCC," too, but that doesn't mean I'm happy "Dollhouse" got cancelled. Besides, why rub it in the faces of the people who did really enjoy this show? The cancellation's bad enough.
 

I think anyone who creates a television series should avoid Fox like the plague. They have an indefinite hatred for sci-fi shows. Take a look:

Firefly --- Canceled
Angel ---- Canceled
Sarah Connor Chronicles ---- Canceled
Dollhouse ---- Canceled


I could add another dozen shows to your list, plus an extra to make up for the fact that "Angel" was (as mentioned) a WB show. It wouldn't make your point any more valid. The fact that Fox has canceled more sci-fi shows than any other network simply means that they've taken a chance on FAR more sci-fi shows than any other network. The only CBS sci-fi show that's survived long-term is "Ghost Whisperer". If the ratings for freshman series "V" and "Flash Forward" drop off, "Lost" wil lbe the only ABC sci-fi show that survived long term.
 

Notice how Fox is constantly canceling any television show created by Joss Whedon? I think Mr. Whedon needs to look at other networks because it's obvious that Fox has a lot of antipathy toward this man. It's funny how th,ey canceled SCC in favor of Dollhouse considering that Dollhouse's ratings were weaker than Sarah, Connor Chronicles. Serves them right.

It's not like Fox chose one show over the other. At the end of last season, both "T:SCC" and "Dollhouse" were on the bubble. Ratings-wise, Fox would have been justified in cancelling both of them. But while "T:SCC" had marginally higher ratings, it was far more expensive than "Dollhouse" and couldn't slash its budget the way "Dollhouse" could. Also, the production side of Fox owns "Dollhouse", which means it makes money on DVD sales, syndication, and international rights that it wouldn't make from "T:SCC" which was (I believe) a Warner Bros. show. Besides, you're comparing the first season of "Dollhouse" to the second season of "T:SCC". When "T:SCC" was canceled, Fox had already given it a second chance.

If anything, the 13-episode second season shows how much Fox is willing to bend over backwards for shows with cult audiences. At the end of the day, it's a business though. When repeats of other shows get higher ratings than fresh episodes of a show, that show's days are numbered.

And while the shows might have done better on a different night, the ratings expectations would have also been much higher. I can't blame Fox for its strategy.

Hopefully Joss and Co. use the two episodes they have yet to shoot to give the show a proper ending, perhaps even with an "Epitaph Two".
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#78
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Just a second note too:

 

I liked T:TSCC, however, the ratings for it were also crap.  But T:TSCC had two other things going against it.. Dollhouse was a studio run show, and they were able to cut the budget to next to nothing by changing cameras and cutting cast/changing cast.   In fact, Dollhouse was sold to them for a second season at almost 1/2 the price of the first per episode.  
 

Fox gave T:TSCC 2 seasons to try and build an audience.  It didn't.  Fox gave Dollhouse 2 years to try and build an audience, and it didn't.

Lots of other networks would have never given a chance at all. 
 

So, I have nothing against Fox.  If Dollhouse were on NBC, it would have been dead six episodes in (ask "Kings") if it were on CBS, a very successful ratings network, they might have taken a chance (see: Jericho) but probably not long term.

Dollhouse was never a good fit for Fox.  The content really needed to be on FX to explorer the real darker side you can't do on broadcast TV.   But que sera, and I thank Fox for giving it a try when no other network would.  Fox continues to take chances rather then play it safe.  I can't fault them for that.  If NBC did that instead of crank out garbage, things might be different.

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#79
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If one looks at a show as an entire package (acting, directing, set design, writing, music, et cetera), I personally felt Dollhouse was simply subpar in a sea of better shows.  Compared to LOST, Battlestar, Fringe (also in danger of being cancelled), Sarah Connor, Jericho, and a few others I'm sure I'm forgetting, Dollhouse just wasn't there:

Acting: Decent, overall, but not in the right places.  Eliza Dushku, Fran Kranz (simply crap), Dichen Lachman, and most of the actors in "client" roles were poor.  Harry Lennix, Tahmoh Penikett, Amy Acker, Miracle Laurie, and Olivia Williams were all great.  However, you really need your lead to be amazing, and your guest stars need to be likewise amazing.  The best guest stars were from Battlestar or Firefly.

Writing: It's hard to judge the writing on its own, because most of it was terribly delivered by Dushku, Kranz, or the clients.  However, there was very little of the charm that you expect from a Whedon production, certainly nowhere near approaching the level of Firefly (and I'm not even a FF fan).

Story: Interesting premise, but ultimately unsatisfying for me, because of poorly-written characters.  Normally, I love dark, morally-grey characters and stories.  But in Dollhouse, I simply didn't care about most of the characters, or what happened to them.  All I know is I wanted Ballard to "win," but I didn't even know what that was.

Set design and other technical stuff like lighting: Amazing.  Easily the best thing about the show was the crew behind the cameras.  The show was gritty when it needed to be, perfectly polished elsewhere.

Directing: Mostly safe and by the books.  I can't think of a single episode that stood out for me in this area, though I remember strongly disliking the direction in episode at the mansion with the client who put herself into Echo after dying.  Actually, I do remember liking the direction in the religious cult episode.

Overall, the show just wasn't that good.  Not when I can watch LOST or BSG for my sci-fi/fantasy fix.  I know, they are on different networks, LOST is on its way out, BSG is over (Caprica is coming though!), on at different times, et cetera.  My point is that I think a lot of people were watching Dollhouse just so they could support Joss Whedon, and not because the show was actually amazing.
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#80
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Don't criticize me for my opinion. Fox just managed to bet on the wrong horse again and now they have paid for it. Dollhouse just plains sucks.

Oh, and Angel is owned by 20th Century Fox and so is Buffy. I have the shows right in front of me. Warner lost the rights to the shows and Fox picked it up after the 5th season. Fox also ended up with Angel as well.
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#81
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That was UPN that picked up Buffy (for broadcast) after Season 5. Angel and Buffy have always been produced by Fox Studios (which as someone mentioned is distinct from Fox Network). Angel was also on the WB for its entire five season run.

He was one of those people who would be neither a follower nor a leader, but only an aspiring heart, impatient in the failing body which imprisoned it. -- T. H. White, "The Once and Future King"

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#82
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Cameron, actually, that is incorrect. It's part of Fox Broadcasting, which, runs Fox Studios, 20th, Century Fox, etc. Not to mention that the show ran on UPN which ran its broadcasting through Fox affiliate TV networks.

If the show were Warners, then Fox Home Video would not have released the series to DVD.
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#83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Talmadge View Post

Cameron, actually, that is incorrect. It's part of Fox Broadcasting, which, runs Fox Studios, 20th, Century Fox, etc. Not to mention that the show ran on UPN which ran its broadcasting through Fox affiliate TV networks.

If the show were Warners, then Fox Home Video would not have released the series to DVD.
 


Fox Broadcasting Company does not run 20th Century Fox or Fox Studios (which is a studio in Australia where they shoot movies).

UPN was Paramount's network. Maybe in some markets, they ran programs on a Fox affiliate but it certainly wasn't the norm.

And as has been said, Buffy and Angel were produced by Fox and aired on The WB and UPN. Fox had nothing to do with either show being cancelled as you first said.
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#84
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I never said the show was Warner's (I don't think anyone else has said that either), just that it ran on the WB Network.
Quote:
If the show were Warners, then Fox Home Video would not have released the series to DVD.

He was one of those people who would be neither a follower nor a leader, but only an aspiring heart, impatient in the failing body which imprisoned it. -- T. H. White, "The Once and Future King"

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#85
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I liked Dollhouse for the most part, and I didn't really have a problem with Dusku or Kranz. However, it really hasn't been something that I've gotten all that excited about. It's a filler show that I catch up on when there's nothing better to watch on the DVR.

If they can give it a good sendoff, it will at least have been treated better by Fox than Firefly was.

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#86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Dial View Post

My point is that I think a lot of people were watching Dollhouse just so they could support Joss Whedon, and not because the show was actually amazing.

That's my experience in a nutshell.  I so wanted to like it, but after 15 episodes, I just got tired of cringing at Eliza's line readings and the stream of uninspired episodes.  As I recall, I only liked three.  The rest were forgettable to flat out bad.  

Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races.

AI Blog and Separated at Birth page

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#87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Dial View Post

Acting: Decent, overall, but not in the right places.  Eliza Dushku, Fran Kranz (simply crap), Dichen Lachman, and most of the actors in "client" roles were poor.  Harry Lennix, Tahmoh Penikett, Amy Acker, Miracle Laurie, and Olivia Williams were all great.  However, you really need your lead to be amazing, and your guest stars need to be likewise amazing.  The best guest stars were from Battlestar or Firefly.

Was Enver Gjokai left off the list intentionally or just forgotten? 

No issues here or anything, it's just that if the show has one solid, convincing, all-around true acting talent it's him.

 
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#88
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I thought Enver Gjokaj was rather middling in the show.  His scenes as Victor were boring, while most of his work as an active were  merely decent.  "Solid" is not a word I would use to describe him, though he was easily the best doll on the show (ignoring Amy Acker, who I don't count as a doll, though she technically was one).

Hopefully, some of the better players on the show, like Penikett and Laurie, will end up on shows that are actually good.  I could see Laurie on Caprica (though I think most of the cast is set, should the show get picked up beyond the pilot).  I just hope Penikett doesn't end up on some by-the-numbers cop show--he would have been good on NCIS:LA, however.
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#89
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 I'm afraid that I won't miss Dollhouse at all and I *loved* Firefly.  You have to look at more than just the producer on a Sci-Fi show.  Firefly had a great staff, and great chemistry among the actors, producers, writers, and post-production SFX team.  It all translated to terrific entertainment.  Of the 13 eps, I would have to give at least 8 of them "Four Stars" out of four.  It just doesn't happen like that all that often.  Dollhouse may have produced two eps (to date) that approached the overall quality of Firefly.  The sad part is, "Terminator: The Sarah Conner Chronciles" was "oh so close" to that magical mix.  The entire first season (9 eps) was great and focused. The actors and the SFX were terrific and the stories mostly compelling. (Heck, I thought the series first season was better than the T3 and T4 theatrical efforts combined, mainly due to the fact that the series was true to the "James Cameron vision" of the concept.)  The problem was, they only produced about 9 more great eps in the second season.  Everything was still there, except for a writers' lapse in the middle of the season. Still, it was close to hitting its stride, and I think it's evident now that Fox cancelled the wrong series last season. 

Joseph
---------------

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#90
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I agree fully with your sentiments, Joseph.

I can't for the life of me, see why Sarah Connor was cancelled so close to the release of Terminator: Salvation.  If that wasn't a chance for free marketing, I don't know what is.  At the very least they should have held off until the last possible second (August?).  Not to get off track, but I also think Lena Headey was the best Sarah Connor--perfectly "rough," yet also with the right amount of sadness.  I'm glad she's going to be in "A Game of Thrones," which HBO better not screw up.
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