New Format for Posts/Threads

I'll be the first to go on record and say I like the change in moving the avatar and bio information on each poster to the top of each post, thereby widening the actual post window. 

I do, however, feel that the avatars are now a bit too small.  For example, I find my avatar to be practically unrecognizable being shrunk so small. 

But, for the most part, I think this is a change I can support. 

It's Woody, Bullseye and Jessie from Toy Story 2.  Sheesh.  I've never even seen the movie and I knew that. 

I'm not sure I like the new format, but I'm notoriously slow to accept change.  In fact, I tend to hold up the line until the clerk finally says, "Here, just take your coins and go!"

Gents,

First, happy to hear that you guys like the new formatting
to an extent.  Huddler listened to your suggestions about
having a W I D E R  format for posts and that was the 
reason for moving all the bio information to the top and
expanding the sides.

We all realize that the avatars suffered in the transition.
That is being addressed.  The plan is to have the avatars
enlarge themselves with a mouse rollover.  However, that
function will take a little more time to implement, and it was
decided that it was better to roll out the new format as soon
as possible (as you guys wanted it) instead of delaying it
for a simple avatar issue.  

You can trust that the avatar size will be addressed. 

Mouse-overs are the devil!  <grin>

But overall I like the changes.  Put the forum jump back instead of the More Forums and I think I could be happy here for a long time.  Especially if posting from an iPhone worked right...  I'll still grumble about not having Spell Correct and Copy and Paste work right but if that's the price we have to pay to make the forum better I can live with it, as long as the overall experience isn't as frustrating has been for the last few months.  Hopefully with the major layout issues resolved you guys can work towards the things that separate HTF from the pack, those little perks and niceties that made this place home for so long and their absence so far have left the longtime members wondering when the magic would be back and the sterile 'sameness' to every other forum would be banished.

Thanks Ron and co. for listening patiently to the cacophony of different suggestions and taking them seriously.  I know it hasn't been 'fun' for you guys either.  Looking forward to actually getting back to the heart of what the forum is about rather than kvetching over how it looks. 

I second that!!

Explain that to me, please.

It's not like we are doing mouse-overs of the entire forum.

Some people, like myself, take pride in their avatars and
want them as large as the format will allow.  We all felt
it was a good compromise to have a mouse-over enlargement.

So, for those of you who are against it, then why just not
roll your mouse over it at all.   

The reason I do not like mouse-overs is the mouse always ends up over something. When I try to read a post I need to move the mouse off the text that I want to read and I do not pay much attention to where it lands - Until it lands on a mouse-over. Then more of the screen is covered and I can not see even more of the web page. A great example of this is the "New Posts" page. While I enjoy being able to preview a post that I might be interested in, the mouse always ends up over a post that I am not interested in and the preview box pops up. This is especially true when I am at work and my browser window is only using 1/4 of my screen and that famous white space is not available.  

I too would like to see the avatars, but I don't like thinks popping up on my screen with out asking for it. Its the same thing as pop up ads. If you do end up implementing the avatar mouse-over, be sure that the larger avatar does not cover the post text or the "View First Unread" button.

I must be missing something here.  Isn't the purpose of this mouse rollover simply to view the avatars in some more detail (something that I endorse because it makes it easier to see if you wish to)?  With all the screen real estate on the left and right side of the page (even in small monitors) why can't you just "park" the cursor out of the way when not wanting to enlarge the avatar?  Or, as someone else suggested, simply not roll over the avatar if you don't want that effect?  It's not like your cursor will be permanently stuck on an avatar or something else that can't be easily avoided once you get a feel for the interface.  Also, I think that the placement of the avatar would not interfere with reading the body of the message especially since I think that it's highly unlikely that one would be viewing the avatar and reading the message at the same time. 

Like I said, I must be misunderstanding what seems to me to be a non-issue.  I mean no disrespect and would appreciate a further clarification if I'm misinterpreting the issue.

Well lets start with the reason I visit HTF - to relax and think about things other than day to day issues. What is my 17 yr old doing with his girlfriend in the basement? What did my wife want me to do while she is at work? What are the dogs chewing on? Issues at work, Etc... It is trivial, but worrying about where my mouse is should not be a concern. I am the type that chooses a 20sec microwave dinner over a 25sec dinner because I am impatient. I hate having to wait for the smile window to open when posting, I hate having to wait when I hit the reply button for the new window to open. I am a very poor speller and having to hit the Ctrl button for spell check got me so frustrated that I deleted my HTF bookmark twice. I am glad that is worked out. All these issues listed above are trivial and by themselves are not much of an issue, but add them up and a visit to HTF is not relaxing and hence not as enjoyable. Don't get me wrong I am not bashing the new software, but there are times that I choose not to post because I don't feel like messing with it.

Typically when the mouse it over something that I am reading, I just want to "bump" it out of the way. The white space is not there when you are not in full screen mode. I do not want to stop in the middle of what I am reading and concentrate on where my mouse is.  If it is above one word & I bump it, it should not open a new box that now covers more than just the one original word. That is a "fail" on the mouse moving mission. The mouse should not be drawing attention to its self and away from what I am reading. HTF is not as bad as many sites that use mouse-overs, but I dislike the idea in general.

Avatars aren't a big deal to me, but I recognize that they are to a lot of members and I want to accommodate them.  I like seeing them as fixed sizes as I am scrolling through the forum, if they were all different sizes that would interrupt the flow as I was reading through IMHO, but I don't mind there being a way for readers to see them full size if they wish.  I also hear what you are saying about mouse overs.  Right now clicking on the avatar or user name takes you to their profile where it is full size.  At first I thought maybe we could click on the avatar and it will open a pop up with the full size avatar, but I don't know if people expect that click to take them to a profile or not? 

Any ideas for how you might be able to see the avatar full screen if you want without leaving the current page or using a mouse over?

I don't know.  The odds of accidentally mousing over an avatar seem pretty low.  I've seen the feature at another site (I won't link it as an example because it's a political site), and it seems to work fine.  The avatars shrink down the instant you are off of them.

Now, there is some kind of site called Add This that people have on their pages.  If you mouse over that, it pops up a box with "MySpace," "Twitter," "Facebook" . . . all these options.  I don't know what the hell it's for and it doesn't just go away.  That, I would be right there with you in opposing.

You guys don't have to worry about mouseovers.

Huddler has decided they can't do anything with the
avatars anyway under this new format. 

Notice, for example, under Ron's avatar there is extra space compared to other members because he has 4 lines of information.  Make everyone's avatar area that same height and increase the size of the avatar to fill the space and just move the name information over to the right just a bit to allow for the square avatar at it's larger size.

Just to clarify its a performance issue.  If the pop ups were enabled it would entail loading both avatar sizes when the page loads.  It adds a noticeable amount to the page load time.  Its a matter of balancing the negative of the  performance hit against the positive of the avatar.

I'm fine w/ this layout change, but then again, I'm not a big fan of large avatars (and pics in sigs) anyway, so ...   I would've probably been fine w/ mouseover for larger avatars too.  Maybe there could've been a user pref to turn it off for those who don't want that -- and maybe also allow modestly larger fixed avatars in that case.

RE: the performance issue, is there some sort of threshold for the popup size before performance degradation becomes unacceptable?  OR is doing it (for say a reasonable 150x150 max size) not feasible at all?

On another note, the layout change makes the post body width much closer to the reply box editing area now, which is a good thing, especially for WYSIWYG posting.  Would be even better if the same font (and size) is used in the reply box though.

_Man_

VERY sad to see the big wasteland return to the right hand side tonight.  =(  Was so stoked it was gone this morning.

And then I noticed I could minimize its impact by resizing my browser.   Not perfect, but again I can live with it I guess.

Mouse Overs are like landmines.  Every time I hit one I vow that thats a site I won't go back to again they annoy me so much.  Why not make the Avatars clickable?  Then everyone is happy.  If you want to see a big avatar you click to see it.  And no mouseovers.

Ron, tell me you didnt ever accidentally mouse over that #$^$&@$%& Montreal thing and immediately want to run away from HTF....   =)

Ron missed that....he was in Altanta at the time....

 I like my Avatar, because it represents ME. Lets you guys know i am saying something. Hey, its RickER, or Mike Frezon. Now its just a bunch of writing, from people who dont really matter. It could be anyone, cause no one is looking to see its ME, and my Avatar. Add the white on cream backgrounds, and its kinda dull.
 
I wish i had something to offer besides me whining, but i dont. If i knew anything id be doing more than posting, and whining! Id be Bill Gates, or Steve Jobs, just better. But, i am not, so let me just say one more time. I will miss our personality, and indaviduality (beats me if i spelled that right  ).

Since there is now a bit of space above each post, how about our signature appear in there between the name and the "joined date"

or move the joined date next to the name and the rest of the area be the signature.

Tony if they move our signatures up there it will look pretty cluttered, besides a signature traditionally comes at the end of a message or post.

Rick has a point, with the dwindling and I'm sure eventual disappearance of our avatars and lack of signature images on this... huddlered forum we members are becoming more and more anonymous, which kind of fits in with the mood and feel of this place.

On the plus side, the extra bit of room to type in by moving things up top is appreciated.

Rick,

Listen, we are in the same frame of mind as you are.

We knew that the members wanted a format change 
as soon as possible.  Posting width has been probably
the #1 complaint around here.  

Huddler did not have an answer as to how to deal
with the Avatars in the process.  So the question to 
us was "make the change now or wait till we can 

figure out the Avatar size problem?"

 

We opted to make the change now.

We are approaching Huddler next week and making
it clear that we would like the Avatar size restored.
It may involve a mouse-over, it may not.  If they
do a mouse-over, it's not going to be anything
obnoxious.  The problem with the mouse-overs is
that their resizing actions take up a lot of system
resources and may hamper performance.

You are very fortunate that many of the Moderators
are big fans of the avatars.  We are just as
disappointed as you that they were downsized.  We
will work on getting them restored.

I think by now you have seen that Huddler has been
addressing many member feedback concerns. There
is still a long list of items they are still promising to
implement on both the user and administrative end.
The platform has evolved quite a bit since July 1st 
and will continue to do so.  We appreciate all of you 
who have stuck this out and have found that they
have now acclimated themselves to the new environment.
 

Steve, I hear you, but that's not the plan.

I have always been 100% honest with the members of
this forum so allow me to say some things that perhaps
I shouldn't....

I will be the first to admit that this new platform was
a huge setback for us in terms of functionality.  Not only
did the members go through a great deal of unnecessary
shock, but so have the Moderators and owners.

In my opinion, had I known that there were so many 
features missing  I would have pushed to wait a few
months to make the transition.  

Someone made a joke about us being guinea pigs on
this platform.  To some extent, I have always felt that
was true.  We did not have enough time to properly 
evaluate the functionality (or lack of) before signing the
papers.

That being said....

Let's jump to now almost 2 months later.  Huddler has
been working feverishly to add features to this platform
and address member concerns.  One of the biggest
problems they have is that there were a dozen people
giving a dozen different ideas as to what needed to be
done.  However, give this company credit, the platform
is coming along and it will continue to evolve.  In other
words, we will get back to the point where avatars and
signatures will be restored.  There are just other more
important issues on the table right now.

Did we make the right choice going with Huddler?  Yes!

We have a strong team behind us.  We have someone
doing coding for this forum.  We have someone actively
going after advertising.  We have someone creating press
kits for us and actively talking to the studios in order to
build solid relationships as we move forward.   I even know
a few secrets about things Huddler has planned for this
board which are pretty major and will hopefully bring the
studios back to this forum in a big way.   In time, because
of the backbone this forum now has, we will hopefully rise
above all the other discussion forums as far as content and 
industry participation.   Behind the scenes I see Huddler
is trying to make that happen.

Parker and I could never have done this on our own.  HTF
was once a powerhouse of a forum, but over the years so
many other sites have sprung up that we became lost in
the crowd.  Huddler is trying to change that.  Their platform
is unique, and to some extent, more organized and functional
than vBulletin.  If you don't see it now...you will.  We are in
the process of tagging threads and products.  This means 
that when you read a certain topic other relevant information
immediately is offered to you.  In the not-so-distant future
you will be able to shop within this forum.  

Most of you may have not noticed, but in addition to
partnering  with Huddler, we brought Adam Gregorich 
aboard as a partner/owner.  Parker and I would never previously
have considered bringing aboard a partner, but then again,
we have never met anyone like Adam.  For the past few years
he was working voluntarily behind the scenes for us.  He has
exhibited great skill in working with the studios and shown
immense initiative and drive to make this forum succeed that
it was a no-brainer to make him a partner.

Yes, we got in on the ground floor of this platform. Perhaps
you could say the basement.  However, there is progress
being shown and all of us believe in our hearts that the
Huddler team is working to bring HTF back to its former glory.  
Quite frankly, we believe this forum is still the best out there.  
Thank you for being patient through this transition.  We are
very grateful.

Thanks for your reply Ron. I no longer post or browse here as much as I used to, so I shouldn't really complain that much, but the change was such a radical departure from what we were used to that some of us are taking longer than usual to accept the changes, the rug had literally been pulled from under our feet so to speak. But I'm sure we will adapt to this new constantly evolving format with time. Now about the loss of our signature images...

 Thanks for the reply Ron.

It does sound exciting. I myself, hate when people complain, just to be complaining, and dont have any ideas. Like i say, i dont know ANYTHING about computers, and running a web site, but i do appreciate you giving us a chance to voice our concern. Just wish i could offer more, in solutions.

I also look forward to this place getting back to its former glory. You have some great mods, interesting topics, and of course some of the best members.

I am not a web page developer and but I know enough to be dangerous. My website is a template that I did not write myself, but I know enough to be able to modify it. Take a look at my blog page. It is kind of boring so you don't need to read it, just look at the layout. There is a menu on the left side and a sidebar on the right with the blog text in the center. Now the side bar on the right does not go all the way down to the bottom of the page, much like the HTF format.

Now in full screen mode notice that the blog text is the full width of the screen. It is this way up top where the side bar is and at the bottom after the side bar. There is no big empty white space. Next click to shrink your window out of full screen mode. Grab the right side of the window and drag it right to left resizing the width of the window. Notice how the text and the post width adjust automatically. If I have all my browser toolbars closed, I can almost shrink it to where the post is one word wide. With this method the post text is the entire width of the screen regardless of the screen width both above and below the right side bar - no white space taking up 25% of the screen.

I don't know how the HTF lay out is written or if there is a reason it can't be changed, but looking at my blog, it is possible to have the posts fill up the width of the screen.

Now about avatars. Some people are great at remembering peoples names, others are great at remembering faces. Avatars are the web equivalent of someones face. It is also an expression of individuality and usually reflects the posters personality much like fashion statements do in the real world. Having avatars makes it much easier for me to recognize posts by a particular member. After the forum change many members lost their avatars and used the default ones. This was a nightmare for me. It was like going to a party where everyone looked the same and having to read everyone's name tag to know who I was talking to. Avatars need to be big enough, all the time, to be recognizable. Signatures further help the posters express their personality. Both the avatars and signature pictures also help give the forum style and personality by breaking up endless text lines with pictures and color.
 
I have read that almost 90% of communication is not done with words, but with expressions, tones in the voice and emphasis on words in a sentence. This site explains it better than I could. We need to have smiles easier to use and more of them. They can help the poster communicate better and prevent or diffuse confrontations in threads. Using that example "I Didn’t Say You Stole My Money." a smile afterwards can communicate whether the statement is an attack , or a joke  or serious  or sarcastic .

Sorry for the long post, I got on a roll.

Good post Dave and I agree with a lot of what you say, avatars and signatures do give the forum personality and colour and makes it a lot easier to find your friends on a thread. Don't forget though that for many years the HTF had no avatars at all, Parker introduced them to the old forum two or three years ago and a few of us didn't know what to do with them since we already had a signature image.


I wish it was 25%, my monitor width is 300mm and currently  the white space takes up 105mm.

First off:  Ron, excellent post.  A wonderful read and an extremely useful post for all of us members who have been trying to be helpful with suggestions about how things at "the new place" could be improved. 

Secondly, I cannot believe how much better this week's Weekly RoundUp looks after this change in formatting.  Pictures and Price Tables are a reasonable size.  There is no awful text wrapping of the titles because of the squeezed table widths.    Everything seems neatly spread out and very easy to read.

Thanks for this big step in a positive direction!

It really does look good. And it's a great example of why it was so important to get this particular formatting change implemented ASAP and leave the avatar issue for another day.

I think that was a great idea to increase the post headers by a line (or two) to match Ron, Parkers, etc. size. The avatar size will increase to match. It should now be big enough without being obnoxious or taking away from the post width. Do that and I think we can put the avatar issue to rest.

Now with all this eloquent discussion about avatars, I realize it's probably about time I came up with something...

I thought it would be helpful for those making suggestions about the width of the page to have a little background about this ever-present design question. It's been interesting reading the feedback here - I think it perfectly illustrates the complexity of the question!

http://webdesign.about.com/od/layout/i/aa060506.htm
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/06/02/fixed-vs-fluid-vs-elastic-layout-whats-the-right-one-for-you/

Definitely Cameron.  I've gone back and forth on fluid versus fixed and can show you forums, blogs and static sites that look great in both formats, so I understand where folks who are hard-core on fixed are coming from.  I'd definitely prefer it to be a user selectable preference but at this point with the fixes rolling in I think other changes are higher priority and think that things have gotten better over time.  If 'skins' and preferences come in the future, great.  If not, what we have here now at works.  Except on the iPhone, of course =)