Cerwin Vega! FE12" 300 watts, need receiver suggestions.

#1

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7/13/09 at 12:16pm

Dean Krouse
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I just bought the Cerwin Vegas VE12 and I need to know what I should get for a really good reciever for them. They are 300 watts each and I just am now building my dream system. I mean my iPod sounds good but I want to have a really good stereo system that the whole block can enjoy. lol. j/k. Any suggestions?
Edited by Dean Krouse - 7/14/2009 at 08:05 pm GMT

#2

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7/13/09 at 12:55pm

Gary Shipley
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Dean. Is this going to be a stereo system only, or 5.1, 7.1 for home theater as well as music? Whats your budget? $300, $600, or more?

Gary Shipley

#3

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7/14/09 at 4:19am

Dean Krouse
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It is going to be only a stereo. I am not hooking it to my LCD or using them for anything but CD's and my iPod connection. My budget is around 300-400 dollars.

#4

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7/14/09 at 5:25am

Gary Shipley
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You might consider the Pioneer VSX-819. It sells for around $300 and has a front USB port for your iPod and the USB cable is included. You can find out more about it at the Pioneer web site.

Gary Shipley

#5

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7/14/09 at 9:20am

Dean Krouse
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Thank you very much I am going to look that up and do some homework on its ratings, maybe CNET has reviewed it even. Thank you either way!

#6

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7/14/09 at 9:26am

Dean Krouse
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Question about the Pioneer receiver. It is rated at 550 watts according to Best Buy's website. I always heard that the receiver should always be less than the total output of the speakers. This way the speakers can never be blown by turning them up too loud. Is that true? Should I be looking for a receiver rated at or under 300 watts?

#7

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7/14/09 at 10:24am

David Willow
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The pioneer puts out 110 watts per channel. Of course it does not state what it puts out with all channels driven so expect less. Plus, these numbers are usually "fluffed" a bit (watts sells since most consumers don't understand). In any case, your speakers maximum input is 300 watts and you will be lucky to get 100 watts from the Pioneer.

Your speakers are safe.

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#8

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7/14/09 at 11:15am

JohnRice
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Dean, you'll help yourself if you stop looking at numbers so much. I'll help by dispelling some misconceptions. The speakers aren't 300 watts. They are unpowered, so they have no watts at all. Manufacturers throw out meaningless specs like that so people will think they mean something. Cerwin Vega speakers a typically very sensitive, meaning it takes very little power to drive them to a decent level. Regarding the comment that the amp should have less power than the speakers are rated to handle so you don't damage them, the exact opposite is actually true. Speakers are rarely damaged by CLEAN power. They are damaged when the amp is driven beyond it's ability, into distortion. More important, refer back to the sensitivity of the speakers. It probably doesn't take much to run them loud, so you really have no problem since any decent receiver will run them louder than you are likely to want. The only specs on a speaker which really mean anything are the impedance (no doubt 8 ohm), the sensitivity (probably in the high 90s, which is very sensitive) and maybe the low frequency limit, which is probably exaggerated anyway. BTW, high sensitivity isn't necessarily "good" unless you want to play loud. It in no way indicates the quality of the speaker. In fact, most high quality speakers have rather low sensitivity.

The bottom line is, Cerwin Vega speakers are designed to play loud with practically anything.

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#9

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7/14/09 at 12:28pm

Stephen Tu
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Your ears are going to get blown out before the speakers :)

The receiver's wattage ratings are *per channel*, so it's not going to drive the speakers with more than 110w, and that's probably optimistic.

Wattage in the absence of other parameters is often a completely meaningless spec not worth looking at all in most cases.
One cares more about how loud you can go which depends on speaker sensitivity:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

#10

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7/14/09 at 1:03pm

Dean Krouse
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Thank you guys so much for all the information! I didnt know much of what you all have enlightened me to. THANK YOU very much. This is a great website for people who know what they are talking about. Seriously, thank you for helping me. It helps arm me against the salesman who actually told me the whole watts arrangement.

#11

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7/14/09 at 1:04pm

Dean Krouse
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Would you guys say Cerwin Vega 12's are a good speaker then with your educated opinions?

#12

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7/14/09 at 1:08pm

Dean Krouse
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That Pioneer has a very good rating and is available at my local best buy. I will probably be buying this one this weekend. Thank you for the advice. Are there any other people's advice on a good 2 speaker stereo system that will compliment my set of Cerwin Vega! VE12.

#13

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7/14/09 at 1:11pm

David Willow
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A good speaker is whatever sounds best to you.

However....

Cerwin Vega's are designed to play loud. If you want to host a party that the neighbors around the block can dance too, then they are great. If you are trying to build a higher end home theater, then, IMO, look elsewhere.

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#14

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7/14/09 at 1:24pm

Dean Krouse
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Yea, I don't really want my neighbors to be bothered by my music. However, I had a set of Cerwins 10 years ago and truly loved the deep clear bass and the likewise crisp highs and mids. To my ear they sound great so I guess that's all that counts huh? Even at low volume they sound good. But I will admit I like to see that Bass vibrating in and out on bass heavy songs. But I also listen to some Classical music like Mozart and find the delicate side clear and enjoyable.

I paid $199.00 each for them. It's really what I can afford now.

One more question, what in anyones opinion would be a complete stereo system built around the CV VE12s? Should I buy an equalizer to arrange the sound better to suite my ear?

Also, (sorry one more question.) Is there really a "break-in" period for speakers? I have been told by a few people that there is. Is it true?

Edited by Dean Krouse - 7/14/2009 at 09:09 pm GMT

#15

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7/14/09 at 1:30pm

MarvinJr
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If all these numbers mean nothing as yall keep saying, then whats the use of them? Seems like everytime some asks about it, the same response is don't use the numbers....

The avr states 100 watts per channel, so according to what yall say.....I could use a 2 watt speaker? Numbers mean nothing.

Rather than saying they don't mean anything, try explaining it. They have to mean something. Maybe they are not exact, but they do mean something.

#16

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7/14/09 at 2:20pm

David Willow
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Quote:

Originally Posted by MarvinJr

If all these numbers mean nothing as yall keep saying, then whats the use of them? Seems like everytime some asks about it, the same response is don't use the numbers....

The avr states 100 watts per channel, so according to what yall say.....I could use a 2 watt speaker? Numbers mean nothing.

Rather than saying they don't mean anything, try explaining it. They have to mean something. Maybe they are not exact, but they do mean something.

Did you read John's post above? The numbers mean something and John explained it better than I ever could.

My Home Theater
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#17

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7/14/09 at 2:32pm

AudioENG
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Dean,

I owned a pair of Cerwin-Vega E12 speakers. I loved them, they played very loud and had an overall good sound quality. I was using a Yamaha receiver to power them that was about 110 W per channel. When I updated my system (for surround sound) I gave them to my brother who had a sony receiver that was about 100 W per channel and they still sounded pretty good. I preferred the yamaha but it was significantly more expensive.

You could go with a two channel receiver since you won't be using it for surround sound.

Sony: STR-DH100 (bestbuy.com)

But I'd definitely recommend a yamaha receiver. A lot of times receivers under $500 from a specific brand don't have any significant amplifier differences they only have differences in the video section, like number of inputs, or surround sound settings. Which in your case isn't important.

Check out the
Yamaha: RX-V365 (bestbuy.com)

I wouldn't spend money on an EQ, most receivers when set to Stereo or 2CH mode have a good balanced sound, also most receivers have a bass and treble knob to make small adjustments.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Marvin Jr,

I understand your frustration. I think what most people mean is don't get caught up in manufactures "stated" specs. Take the power rating for example. There are a lot of things that go into consideration when coming up with a power rating for an amplifier.

A system could be 100 Watts per channel with the following restrictions:
it's driven into 8 ohms
it's rated at a specific frequency of 1 khz - which is not the whole range of the amp (20hz-20khz or sometimes even more)
the THD (total harmonic distortion) is 10% - which is high compared to some amps that are less than 1%
and finally they usually don't say if it is all channels driven simultaneously or just one channel at a time, and they usually print Peak power (what the receiver is capable of producing for a split second) instead of or RMS (a more continuous rating).

That is why it's hard to compare just a number when you don't know all the different factors that go in to coming up with that number. A good example is a cheap home theater in a box may say 1000 Watts but compared to a 200 watt yamaha receiver and good speakers this HTIB won't sound nearly as good. The best way to evaluate a system is always how does it sound to you.

#18

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7/14/09 at 2:36pm

Stephen Tu
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Quote:

If all these numbers mean nothing as yall keep saying, then whats the use of them? Seems like everytime some asks about it, the same response is don't use the numbers....

OK, the rule is generally don't pay attention to wattage numbers.
This is because:
- for receivers, the companies tend to fudge the numbers in various ways so you can't directly compare anyway, you get less than advertised. Despite this, for home usage with typical speakers and listening volumes that won't cause permanent hearing damage, you are basically guaranteed to have enough power.
- for speakers, again you'll tend to blow out your hearing before reaching a power level that can damage the drivers.
- in general, small differences in wattage aren't very meaningful, because you have to double the power to get a +3dB increase in volume, which is "turn the volume up a bit".

exceptions:
- you are putting on a concert and need to blast away at loud levels in a huge gymnasium/auditorium or the like.
- you have exotic low impedance speakers like the Magneplanars someone was having trouble powering in another thread.

The numbers for speakers you tend to look at are frequency response, particularly at the low end, sensitivity, impedance. And driver sizes + overall size. Not anything to do with watts.

#19

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7/14/09 at 2:49pm

Dean Krouse
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AudioEng, Stephen Tu, David Willow, hope I didn't forget anyone who was very helpful to me. Thank you all again for helping me to disseminate all the information. I think I know what I am going to do now.

#20

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7/14/09 at 3:26pm

Dean Krouse
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114 db?!!? wow, thats in the painful range.

#21

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7/14/09 at 3:52pm

MarvinJr
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Yeah I read it, that's why I posted my post. He didn't explain much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Willow

Did you read John's post above? The numbers mean something and John explained it better than I ever could.

#22

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7/14/09 at 3:56pm

MarvinJr
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Now.....the next thread or 2 EXPLAINED it......as a GENERAL rule. Not as I seem to see alot.....people saying the number mean NOTHING.

They do have some relevance for the basic to midlevel people, maybe not to the top level people.

Like I said the reciever states 100w per channel.....I understand they underrate, and some overrate....but you still want to match the numbers to some degree, right.

#23

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7/14/09 at 3:57pm

JohnRice
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Dean, if you saw 114 dB on something, maybe the maximum output of the CVs, that is probably at 1 meter. Sound dissipates logrithmically (for the life of me, I can't remember how to spell that) meaning it is cut in half (-3dB) when your distance from the speaker increases by 40%. (Guys, let's not get into an argument over whether -3dB is half the volume. It is measurably half, even if it doesn't seem half subjectively.) Still, I understand it is generally believed to be risking permanent hearing damage to be exposed to constant sound over something like 85dB for only a few minutes.

MarvinJR, what I said was "Dean, you'll help yourself if you stop looking at numbers so much". Some numbers, such as the power handling of a speaker, are almost completely meaningless. Some manufacturers use them for exactly the reason you have seen here, so people will say "WOW, these have 500 Watts!". Power ratings of amps are of some use, but depending on the manufacturer and your needs. For instance, if you are looking to power a set of esoteric, low sensitivity, low impedance speakers, the power ratings can tell you a couple important things. I'll take my main speakers as an example. Low (84 dB) sensitivity and low impedance (3 to 4 ohm nominal, depending on how they are rated) so I know there are a couple things needed to properly handle them. One, lots of amperage is good, but stability into low impedance is a must. If an amp doubles power from 8 to 4 ohm, and again from 4 to 2 ohm, that is an amp that won't melt down with these particular speakers. VERY few amps have that capability. Those specs are pretty much unnecessary for the CVs being discussed, because they present a very "easy" load, so those specs aren't important. That doesn't mean the amp will sound great, just that it can physiclaly handle the speakers. There are PA amps with these specs which I doubt would sound good. They are built for output and abuse first, not so much audio quality. Read a bit more, and more closely.

They flutter behind you, your possible pasts.
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.

#24

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7/14/09 at 4:02pm

JohnRice
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Quote:

Originally Posted by MarvinJr

but you still want to match the numbers to some degree, right.

Not in most cases. If you are building a DIY sub, there are some mathematics where you can determine you need a certain amount of power to fulfill the sub's capabilities, but in most real world situations that is rarely the case. The most comon exception is the impedance of the speakers. Most speakers are roughly 8 ohm, but if it is lower, it can be important that the amp can handle them without overloading. Again, that has nothing to do with sound quality, just that the amp is designed to handle the load.

EDIT: Nobody can say I didn't try.

They flutter behind you, your possible pasts.
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.

#25

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7/14/09 at 4:05pm

MarvinJr
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See......that's more realistic.....rather than the broad statement that people like to say here that numbers mean NOTHING. They do have some relevance.

EDIT, btw......nice that you can go back and change your response to say that the numbers are FLUFFED!....instead of the original " NUMBERS MEAN NOTHING".

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnRice

Not in most cases. If you are building a DIY sub, there are some mathematics where you can determine you need a certain amount of power to fulfill the sub's capabilities, but in most real world situations that is rarely the case.

EDIT: Nobody can say I didn't try.

#26

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7/14/09 at 4:37pm

Dean Krouse
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Marvin Jr. troll?

#27

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7/14/09 at 4:54pm

Stephen Tu
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Marvin, a lot of people, especially on the basics forum, can perfectly go on with their lives & equipment picks with merely knowing "ignore wattage specs as they are basically irrelevant".

You are more curious & want to understand more deeply, so why don't you just ask politely for more detail, instead of slamming people? We don't necessarily want to write long essays about everything if the original poster is satisfied with the first answer. If you slam people like that, they aren't going to be particularly inclined to help you out. Go do you own web research if you have that attitude.

#28

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7/14/09 at 5:04pm

Dean Krouse
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Yep Marvin is a troll. That confirms it. Theres one on every thread isnt there. What a shame. I feel bad for people like that.

#29

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7/14/09 at 5:32pm

JohnRice
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FWIW, I never changed my wording. I did add some elaboration to my most recent post. Beyond that, saying any more on that particular topic is pointless.

Dean, this brought to mind something. How you look at many things depends on the level of discussion. Sometimes something is true at one level and false or at least debatable at another level. Think about this. You can get a surround receiver for $200 that has 100-110 watts per chanel. Jump up to the $2,000 level and that rating typically only goes up to around 135, maybe 170 at the most. That is a miniscule increase, 1 to 2 db, for 10x the cash. There must be other things at work here, and there are. It gets very complicated.

I'll add one thing. I actually have not paid a lot of attention to the other specs on speakers for a long time, mainly because they don't tell you much. What DOES tell you something is when no specs are published, as with Bose. That usually means something is horribly wrong. The one frequency spec I think is useful is the low frequency limit. It can be helpful in setting up a subwoofer. I typically use the -3dB level as a reference for the crossover of the sub, and set it to at least double whatever that frequency is, for starters anyway.

They flutter behind you, your possible pasts.
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.

#30

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7/14/09 at 6:04pm

David Willow
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The problem I have with marketing is they make certain numbers seem as if they are the only thing to look at. A good example are many home theater in a box systems. How many times do you see in HUGE LETTERING 500 watts? 750 watts? 1000 watts? Each time the watts goes up, so does the price. They omit the important details. Things like 100 watts per channel into 4 ohm or less. Of course then the speakers are tiny little paper junk that are horribly inefficient.

I consider the Watts game and BOSE in the category. They are both about bragging. You can brag to your uniformed friends that you have more watts or look how rich I am, I have BOSE. Its all pure marketing BS and it really, really irritates me. That's one of the reasons I choose to get all internet direct brands (Axiom, SVS). NO BS MARKETING DEPARTMENT!!!

There, now I feel better

PS - Marvin, if the best you can do is swear like an idiot, you are in the wrong forum. We are adults here.

My Home Theater
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Dolby and DTS Plaques (downloads)

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