What has happened to people?

#1

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7/10/09 at 4:48pm

SoldanoCrush
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I've been on IMDB for quite a while... and regarding the forums, I never really have liked it too much, but lately, it seems as if the atmosphere is almost strictly people who love to hate movies. People seem to have become so mean.

Great example is the latest Transformers movie. I know it wasn't the greatest movie, but it did what it was supposed to do. It was an entertaining blow out action movie.

Another example is Martian Child. Check out the forum for it on IMDB, it's FILLED with people talking about how the movie is crap. Personally, I thought Martian Child was really friggin' good.

I'm amazed. What has happened to people? Since when did it become so "cool" to hate everything. From music to movies to styles. It seems like people like to talk down about things that are huge because it makes them "different" and "edgy".

There is no conversation, it just "This movie sucks, you are an idiot for liking it" or "This movie is racist"

I'm an odd person, and I am most definitely a non-conformist, but I still love Transformers and Nickelback.

#2

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7/10/09 at 7:15pm

TravisR
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Quote:

Originally Posted by SoldanoCrush

What has happened to people? Since when did it become so "cool" to hate everything.

Since the internet caught on.

Other than for a laugh, I don't even look at boards at IMDB or Aint It Cool because there's an overwhelming majority of angry, mean spirited, bitter losers who harbor the delusion that they could make a movie.

I (and others) had no love for Transformers but even when people disagree, you'll find a much friendly atmosphere here than most boards discussing movies. Welcome aboard!

#3

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7/11/09 at 6:29pm

Shad R
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Maybe the reason people are bashing Transformers 2 is that it's a dumb, mindless, confusing, silly, over the top horrible movie. I think it's as simple as that. I hated it, and I know I'm not the only one. I'm sure there are people who do diss things and write scathing reviews because they think they sound cool, but for the most part, I agree with the reviews on Transformers 2. I hated that movie.

#4

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7/11/09 at 7:39pm

SoldanoCrush
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See Shad R... you kinda make my point... why do you have to be so hateful sounding? It's just a movie.

#5

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7/11/09 at 9:45pm

Zack Gibbs
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Jonny, your basic point in the OP is valid. A good example being people who hate things they've never even seen a hint of. You see a lot of that these days.

However, you wont win any arguments trying to claim Transformers was a good movie. That was the shittiest piece of shit that the shit farm ever shat. Its not a baseless opinion, people saw the film, and rationally concluded its awfulness. There's a difference between that and the sort of attitude based skepticism that's so prevalent these days.

It also doesn't mean you can't like it personally. I think Bad Boys II is Bay's masterpiece, but it wasn't well received. No point in pretending otherwise.

"Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now... and so we'll hunt him... because he can take it... because he's not a hero... he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector... a DARK KNIGHT."

#6

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7/12/09 at 1:11am

SoldanoCrush
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I understand a lot didn't like Transformers... I was just bringing it up as an example.

There are plenty that thought Dark Knight, Departed, and 2001 were crap.

My point is not really so much, what movies actually are good or bad... it's just this ridiculously negative attitude that people give off is just kind of sad.

In the words of my dad... "Whats wrong with everybody just being cool and getting along?"

#7

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7/12/09 at 4:42am

Steve Christou
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I know what you mean Jonny. When I got on the internet about 11 years ago I was confronted with so much hate on movies that I and my movie-going friends thought were universally enjoyed by everyone, big summer blockbusters. They may not be of the calibre of Citizen Kane or 2001 but they were entertaining, why all the hate? I was shocked.

The IMDB is a good example, no film is left unscathed on their comment boards, and the more successful a movie is the more hate it receives.

We have haters on the HTF too, Transformers was a harmless bit of summer fluff and I enjoyed it, I'm looking forward to the DVD. When I read comments like "That was the shittiest piece of shit that the shit farm ever shat." than I get the impression that person can't possibly be more than 13 or 14 years of age, but I might be wrong, Zack?

A bad film worth avoiding to me is something like Gigli or Swept Away, but when it's a film about giant alien robots pounding each other into the dust and you go to see it knowing thats exactly what you're going to get, why the hate? The movie does what it says on the tin.

My usual explanation for this internet phenomenon is that most of the haters are unhappy, glum little nerds who need to get out more, find a girlfriend, and I stand by that.

Where it gets interesting is when a movie like Wolverine or Terminator 4 or Transformers 2 arrives on DVD a lot of these 'haters' will be scrambling to buy it, tripping over each other to be the first to own it, with some excuse that its "for me dad" or "my sisters kid" or even "well I liked the first so I should get this too". [sniggers]

And thats my rant of the day.

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#8

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7/12/09 at 5:08am

Charlie Campisi
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As Zack said, there are two separate points here - (i) whether there is unfair criticism on the net and (ii) whether it's unfair to slam Transformers. The first is a factual "yes" the second is an opinion that seems to be held by many. They're different points and shouldn't be confused.

There are tons of reasons why people like to bash movies, and every other subject matter, on the net. Anonymity, seeing nobodies turn blogs into profitable careers, get a rise out of people, etc. It's just the way it is now. Find a place where the collection of people are more open minded (like the HTF generally) and move on. Forums evolve when the people posting in them grow, leave, change, etc. Most don't last forever, but the HTF has had great longevity as many of the admins, owners and posters here are fair minded.

As for the other point that "Transformers did what it was supposed to do," did it really? Is it ok to hold it to a lower standard? The Pixar films, Batman Begins, Spiderman and a number of other action films or films targeted at younger audiences have proven that action films and kids films can be made with a good story. The bar has been raised.

#9

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7/12/09 at 5:50am

Ray_R
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Quote:

Originally Posted by SoldanoCrush

I understand a lot didn't like Transformers... I was just bringing it up as an example.

There are plenty that thought Dark Knight, Departed, and 2001 were crap.

My point is not really so much, what movies actually are good or bad... it's just this ridiculously negative attitude that people give off is just kind of sad.

In the words of my dad... "Whats wrong with everybody just being cool and getting along?"

I only feel The Departed is crap since it doesn't hold a candle to the Infernal Affairs Trilogy and Scorsese should've received his Oscar for a different picture. Just my two cents.

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#10

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7/12/09 at 6:38am

Chad R
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I see your point, Jonny. It's not just that people dislike a movie, it's the vitriol with which they seem to attack it and others who do like it. It's the exuberance of their scorn that's sometimes troubling. Not to mention the extent of their analysis is coming up with colorfully profane ways to rewrite the phrase, "it sucks". They can't say why it did, or analyze the film's flaws or accomplishments in intelligent terms, all they can do is invent new adjectives that typically are synonymous with excrement because they mistake it for cleverness.

Why do they do this? I honestly think it's an age thing. The people posting on IMDB seem to be adolescents to early adults. That's the time period in a person's life that they feel the need to rebel against "the norm" to develop their individuality. The trick is, they feel the need to announce these new found traits at the top of their lungs. Hence, it's why you get very nasty opinions about pop culture, and why they cling to discussion boards to do it. If you disagree with their opinion, then you are disparaging their new found individuality and in their mind's framework insulting their deepest held beliefs. In time, as these people mature, they will become more educated in school or through life, learn to make better conclusions and form smarter opinions, and will lose the inclination to vilify others who disagree with them. They'll learn individuality begins with taste in pop culture, but does not end there. They'll eventually learn to value wisdom over cleverness. In short, they'll grow up.

#11

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7/12/09 at 6:56am

Henry Gale
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Quote:

Originally Posted by SoldanoCrush

I've been on IMDB for quite a while...

How long has it been?

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-Far From Heaven- (2002)

#12

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7/12/09 at 6:56am

TravisR
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad R

I see your point, Jonny. It's not just that people dislike a movie, it's the vitriol with which they seem to attack it and others who do like it.

It does take a weird turn when people seem to take a movie and its fans as a personal insult. What do I care if Steve or Jonny like Transformers 2? Is my life going to improve if I convince someone that it was a terrible movie?

I'm not saying that anyone here is doing that type of thing, I'm talking more about the bottom feeding losers at IMDB or Aint It Cool where the person that screams the loudest and angriest is the 'winner' of the debate.

#13

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7/12/09 at 7:02am

Michael Reuben
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It's not just the internet. A lot of "professional" critics are no better.

The fact is that it's hard work to analyze a film thoughtfully and express those thoughts clearly. Being snarky is a lot easier, and most people are lazy. That's nothing new, but the internet brings it up close and personal.

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#14

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7/12/09 at 8:02am

Steve Christou
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The difference is professional critics are often more entertaining when putting their distaste into words, one of my favourites (on Transformers 2) - "a cacophonous series of explosions intermittently interrupted by needless dialogue".

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#15

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7/12/09 at 8:28am

RobertR
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Christou

My usual explanation for this internet phenomenon is that most of the haters are unhappy, glum little nerds who need to get out more, find a girlfriend, and I stand by that.

My, such an intense expression of disdain ("hatred") for the "haters". Easily matching the disdain people have for certain movies. The pot's pretty black here. I've seen some quite articulate critiques of Transformers and why it's a bad movie (and yes, it does seem to be a strange defense to say "yeah, but it succeeds at being a bad movie!"). Sort of like the difference between saying one hates foreign films and saying one hates bad foreign films.

#16

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7/12/09 at 9:15am

Zack Gibbs
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Christou

We have haters on the HTF too, Transformers was a harmless bit of summer fluff and I enjoyed it, I'm looking forward to the DVD. When I read comments like "That was the shittiest piece of shit that the shit farm ever shat." than I get the impression that person can't possibly be more than 13 or 14 years of age, but I might be wrong, Zack?

That's odd, when someone says they liked "Transformers 2" I get the impression they can't be more than 13 or 14 years old. Weird.

"Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now... and so we'll hunt him... because he can take it... because he's not a hero... he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector... a DARK KNIGHT."

#17

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7/12/09 at 9:34am

Steve Christou
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Haha! That's a good point, I'm pretty sure I'm way out of the age group for these sort of films. Still, doesn't excuse all the over-the-top hatred. [seething] I hate haters.

Dave hören... auf, Wille stoppen Sie Dave..., Stoppen Sie Dave..., Mein Gehirn geht..., Ich bin Gefühl es..., Ich bin Gefühl es..., Ich bin ängstlich Dave...

#18

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7/12/09 at 9:51am

Ed Moroughan
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It's not only the Internet it's around in real life too. Example: While talking on the phone with an old friend we got onto the subject of the movies of Summer 2008. He said he thought The Dark Knight was the best comics movie ever. I said I still thought Superman was the best. He proceeded to roll right over my "I liked TDK too" and called the movie gay, me gay, Christopher Reeve gay, stupid because he couldn't stay on his horse, and that Superman Returns was better. To that I just said "Hmm" and managed to end the call about then. I don't comment on films anymore much, either in life or on HTF, I'm tired of being told I'm dumb or I didn't get it. I like what I like/You like what You like. Savvy?

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#19

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7/12/09 at 11:43am

Michael Reuben
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Christou

The difference is professional critics are often more entertaining when putting their distaste into words, one of my favourites (on Transformers 2) - "a cacophonous series of explosions intermittently interrupted by needless dialogue".

You know, once I discovered how easy it is to write that stuff, I stopped being entertained by it.

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#20

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7/12/09 at 12:39pm

RobertR
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Reuben

You know, once I discovered how easy it is to write that stuff, I stopped being entertained by it.

It's as easy as using the "deeper, wider soundstage", "more focused midrange", and "superior microdynamics" type phrases thrown about in the High End audio subjectivist mags. :)

Edited by RobertR - 7/12/2009 at 07:51 pm GMT

#21

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7/12/09 at 1:15pm

Cees Alons
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Hundreds of movies are made each year, millions of books have been written and may paintings are painted and will be painted. It would not only be odd if I happened to like all of them, there's in fact much more chance that I really adore only a few. Let alone the possibility for me to exprerience many of those works of art.

So, from the information theory point of view, the announcement that I don't like any one of them carries much less information than when I say I do love it. Like "dog bites man" is not in the same league of news as "man bites dog" is.

Yet, people seem to think they are stating something very personal and wonderful if they tell us they don't like a work of art. Or don't consider it "art" at all.

This thread shows some of the interesting mechanisms around this. When the OP tries to make an observation and (to help us understand his point) mentions the title of a particular movie that's often criticized, more than one poster (although I don't believe they missed the real point of the original post) feel an urge to comment in a very negative and vehement way on that specific movie (note that for the sake of the discussion it would have sufficed to say something like: "Yeah, Jonny, but your example isn't too strong, because many people really don't like Transformers-2").

This thread also shows the difference between the people expressing their admiration or their disdain of a certain movie. The latter saying things like "it stinks", it "IS" dumb, mindless and confusing, it "WAS" the shittiest piece of shit, or "IS" crap, apparently stating it like facts, using equations and hyperboles. While the ones liking it say things like "I liked it", "it worked for me", "I enjoyed it". Not too absolute and almost apologizing.

I have yet to read someone say that a movie he liked felt "like the soft, warm left breast of the Venus of Milo, but then in real flesh invitingly, lovingly and lustily put in his eager hand" or "this movie smells and tastes like cool vanilla pie with the finest whipped cream, topped with a beautiful red and spickled strawberry and delicately powdered and flavoured with the finest of chocolate powder lovely sending it's tickling and interesting scent to my nose".

Cees

Edited by Cees Alons - 7/12/2009 at 08:30 pm GMT
Edited by Cees Alons - 7/12/2009 at 08:31 pm GMT

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#22

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7/12/09 at 1:51pm

David Norman
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Don't know about the rest of you, but I love that last paragraph of Cees'

Sounds like a stereotypically Southern manner of describing something pleasant though if you actually wrote something like that you'd get branded an Snobby Elitist B**tard, a Wine Sipping Effete, or some other such term.

Maybe it's being born during Eisenhower, but I actually agree with the OP with his basic sentiment though the idea of the Unpleasable Critic or Above it All Too Cool for Their Own Good person is not new.

"I sit in my cube with my headphones on and try to let my competence hold back the tide for as long as possible, then move on when the flood of stupidity breaches the levee. I'm a refugee from Hurricane Stupid."

#23

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7/12/09 at 2:01pm

Brian Borst
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I never got why people do that in the first place. If I've just seen a bad film, I'm not one to go to some message board and complain about it. I tend to forget the film, or something. There are tons of good movies out there, and I tend to focus my attention more on those movies.
I also think it doesn't really help to just say 'this film sucks'. I don't even try to argue with somebody like that, if it's a favorite film of mine he's complaining about. If he can give me decent arguments about why he thinks the film was bad, I would want to listen to that. Just stating your opinion without diverging on it isn't constructive. But hey, it's still the internet.

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#24

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7/12/09 at 2:27pm

Michael Reuben
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Borst

I also think it doesn't really help to just say 'this film sucks'. I don't even try to argue with somebody like that, if it's a favorite film of mine he's complaining about. If he can give me decent arguments about why he thinks the film was bad, I would want to listen to that. Just stating your opinion without diverging on it isn't constructive. But hey, it's still the internet.

My definition of a great film critic -- not just "good", but truly great -- is someone who can write a negative review of a film you like, and you still learn something from reading it. There aren't many like that. The late Pauline Kael was one.

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#25

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7/12/09 at 2:29pm

Ed Moxley
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People try to read too much into movies. I can't imagine why. C'MON PEOPLE....... IT'S JUST A MOVIE! A movie is good to me if it has three things........a good picture, good sound, and is entertaining. So, I like a lot of movies that others hated, such as Crank.
I feel sorry for people that won't allow a movie to entertain them. That's all it's supposed to do. It's a movie, not a documentary.

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#26

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7/12/09 at 2:31pm

Joe Karlosi
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Well, especially when it comes to being part of a "Movie Board", I can't see anything wrong with giving honest opinions -- praising a film when you enjoy it, or bashing a film when you don't. It can be a lot of fun stomping on a film you thought was "terrible" or "worthless", moreso even than in writing what you enjoyed about a good one. I've found that some of the most entertaining critical reviews to read are the bad, ruthless ones; and I've also found that when I write my own notes, there may be more colorful things to write about with the negatives rather than the usual positives ("good story", "stylish direction", "fine acting", etc...).

I also am not one to buy into the routine when people ask: "Why are you criticizing this movie?? Could YOU do any better??" Movies are allowed to be loved, worshiped, and also panned. As viewers, this is our right; it has nothing to do with whether or not we could make a better film ourselves. This would mean that nobody could ever say a film stank?

I agree that I often like to hear a lot more than just a simple "that sucked", as I like more specifics (just like I wouldn't be satisfied with a basic "that was great"). But you know, something else to consider is that sometimes a movie is so unbearably awful that it's not even WORTH the effort to waste our time with more than two words on it!

#27

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7/12/09 at 2:35pm

RobertR
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Borst

I never got why people do that in the first place. If I've just seen a bad film, I'm not one to go to some message board and complain about it. I tend to forget the film, or something. There are tons of good movies out there, and I tend to focus my attention more on those movies.
I also think it doesn't really help to just say 'this film sucks'. I don't even try to argue with somebody like that, if it's a favorite film of mine he's complaining about. If he can give me decent arguments about why he thinks the film was bad, I would want to listen to that. Just stating your opinion without diverging on it isn't constructive. But hey, it's still the internet.

I've read countless complaints on here regarding all sorts of things--food, restaurants, the general level of service at a business, quality of goods, mismanagement at theaters, etc. I've never seen anyone say that doing so is somehow wrong or gauche, the fact that one can have many good experiences notwithstanding. So I see nothing wrong with complaining about movies, as if they're some magical exception. Why should they be? What's the basis for saying that an expressed opinion can only be a positive one? The inability to articulate one's dislike well is a different issue.

#28

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7/12/09 at 2:45pm

Joe Karlosi
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Borst

I also think it doesn't really help to just say 'this film sucks'. I don't even try to argue with somebody like that, if it's a favorite film of mine he's complaining about. If he can give me decent arguments about why he thinks the film was bad, I would want to listen to that. Just stating your opinion without diverging on it isn't constructive.

Especially when it involves someone disliking a movie that I myself really enjoy ... or a classic that usually gets rave reviews in general .... I too am very interested in hearing a person's angle as to what he/she did not like about it. When someone doesn't like, say, CITIZEN KANE, I'm really interested in hearing why not.

But at the same time ... and I know this probably will not be very popular to say ... I sometimes feel that whoever is in the "minority," given the general reputation of any particular film, is more at liberty to explain his position. In other words, it's not so much those who 'appreciate' CITIZEN KANE who have to elabortate; it's more those who find it an 'unappealing' movie who are in the position of making their stand.

On the opposite side, I'm obliged to be the one who has to go into more detail as to why I enjoy something like DRACULA VS. FRANKENSTEIN, when its general reputation is THE PITS! This is not to say there are "right and wrong" opinions, but many movies are overwhelmingly considered either "good" or "bad", as some sort of general reputation.

#29

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7/12/09 at 3:39pm

Ken Chan
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People can be particularly negative because they feel like they've blown their $10. For some, it's a reaction to the fact that the "movie industry" is not attempting to make good, entertaining movies; they're in it just to make money -- as much money as they can before people figure out that the movie is a hack, or the movie maker is a hack, or the movie executive is a hack. Being a hack is a lot easier if you have millions of dollars in the bank.

Other people are excessively negative because they themselves are hacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoldanoCrush

I understand a lot didn't like Transformers... I was just bringing it up as an example.

There are plenty that thought Dark Knight, Departed, and 2001 were crap.

Those people are wrong.

But seriously, forget any individual's opinion of those four movies, including mine or yours. Billions of people see a movie -- you can find "plenty" with any given opinion. Would you say that the "average" opinion of The Dark Knight is indistinguishable from that of Transformers 2?

It's the implied false equivalence there. I get that your point is really the individual complaints. And to bolster that, someone that "hates" a "well-regarded" movie can be even more irrational: "Why is everyone so crazy to like this movie which is so obviously horrible?" But even then, it's not that any individual opinion is "wrong" -- although being able to articulate it and base it on content that actually appears in the film is a minimum requirement.

Maybe it's the tribalism that elbows out honest debate on a variety of subjects. It's much easier to declare that you're right than to actually find and weigh all the relevant facts. The world is much simpler when you're always right. Except it's a trap: if it's so simple, why are all these other people wrong? Why can't they see it?

And so the resentment builds. Anything you don't instantly love, you instantly hate. There is no middle ground, because middle ground requires nuance, and nuance requires complexity, but you don't do complexity; the world is simple.

#30

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7/12/09 at 5:51pm

Michael Elliott
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If Hollywood is lazy then I really don't see why professional critics should really waste time and breakdown the heart and soul of some piece of crap that will make $200 million today and then be replaced the following year by the latest "cool" thing.

I find it rather pathetic when a "reviewer" keeps thinking he's deep and really digging into the "true meaning" of a film yet he's too blind to realize that just because someone doesn't share his opinion that the other person didn't "see" something in the movie. Even a great critic can screw up be it Ebert or Kael. It's not like either one of these critics are going to go to 42nd Street and bother reviewing some of those films. I mean hell, Ebert bashed the hell out of certain films because rape was shown as being funny yet he seemed to forget joking about rape and making fun of blacks for a certain Russ Meyer film. Is Ebert really saying you shouldn't write a "funny" rape scene yet he himself has done it? Do I call him a bad critic for this?

You could show 2001 to one-hundred different people and all of them might come away thinking the film was about something different. There are countless opinions as to what happened in THE SHINING but not everyone is idiots because they don't share one opinion.

What I do find strange is why people will pay $10 just to watch a movie that they're going into it hating. It happens countless time with either summer blockbusters or especially horror movies. You find these types on various message boards. Some have mentioned IMDB and while there are some smart people on the boards, I usually try to make them come here and post or other boards where they'd fit in better.

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