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Let a Smaller Company Do It

#1
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6/16/09 at 3:58am
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I would love to see a small company come along (like Shout!) that would begin aquiring rights to many shows that are associated with programs that have had successful DVD released BUT that the parent companies aren't willing to put the effort into releasing.

They don't have to be fancy sets, with tons of extras just the best copies of each episodes available. No extra interviews with creators or stars. No bells, no whistles.

My list:

Tortellis (Cheers has sold very well and this show was only one season)

Sanford (S&S did pretty darned well and it stars the same lead!)

Rickie Brockelman, Private Eye (tougher sell but it is a direct spin off of Rockford Files)

Phyllis (from MTM, really I only want the first season, it was the funniest)

I am sure you all have a similar list.

My point is I think that if they were marketed as direct tie ins to DVD sets that already sold well, the sales would be fairly decent. Not the level of the main shows, I am sure, but decent.
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#2
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6/16/09 at 7:23am
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
Originally Posted by bretmaverick2
I would love to see a small company come along (like Shout!) that would begin aquiring rights to many shows that are associated with programs that have had successful DVD released BUT that the parent companies aren't willing to put the effort into releasing.

They don't have to be fancy sets, with tons of extras just the best copies of each episodes available. No extra interviews with creators or stars. No bells, no whistles.

My list:

Tortellis (Cheers has sold very well and this show was only one season)

Sanford (S&S did pretty darned well and it stars the same lead!)

Rickie Brockelman, Private Eye (tougher sell but it is a direct spin off of Rockford Files)

Phyllis (from MTM, really I only want the first season, it was the funniest)

I am sure you all have a similar list.

My point is I think that if they were marketed as direct tie ins to DVD sets that already sold well, the sales would be fairly decent. Not the level of the main shows, I am sure, but decent.

Phyllis might do Rhoda numbers - or even better since Chloris is still keeping her profile up. Sanford could also do well.

However I don't know anyone who asks me about Cheers being out on DVD wondering if they'll ever see Tortellis again.

Rickie Brockelman, Private Eye is beyond a Final Jeopardy question. Since they did so few episodes, it would have been perfect to include a bonus episode on each Rockford season set.

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#3
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6/16/09 at 1:03pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
I would love to see a small company come along (like Shout!) that would begin aquiring rights to many shows that are associated with programs that have had successful DVD released BUT that the parent companies aren't willing to put the effort into releasing.

If these shows had actually had a successful DVD release, you wouldn't need a third party to come in and rescue them. The studios would do it.

Every show on your list is either a spin-off from or a sequel to a successful show. Every one of them then flopped itself and was cancelled in short order. Why would the studios think a show like The Toricellis, which couldn't cash in on Cheers when both were on the air, would be able to do so on DVD? (And did it really last a whole season? I thought it was cancelled quicker than that.) And why would Shout Factory! want to pay a licesnse fee to release such marginal shows?

Regards,

Joe
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#4
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6/16/09 at 4:01pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
Originally Posted by bretmaverick2
I would love to see a small company come along (like Shout!) that would begin aquiring rights to many shows that are associated with programs that have had successful DVD released BUT that the parent companies aren't willing to put the effort into releasing.

"Like Shout"?

Tell it to the fans or IRONSIDE! ...Or even RHODA!

Please tell me why SHOUT, in particular, is held so high to the heavens! Lately, they don't seem anymore deserving of it than "The Big Bad Studios".

Both do good, and both do bad! Small isn't necessarily "good" and big isn't necessarily "bad"! That's all there is to it!
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#5
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6/16/09 at 4:39pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Well, Sony hasn't been releasing much because they suffered major losses last quarter. As far as your suggestion, not every studio is going to go that route. While Universal has allowed Shout Factory to release some of their titles, they may just be using the partnership as a testing program.
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#6
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6/16/09 at 5:13pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tor1
"Like Shout"?

Tell it to the fans or IRONSIDE! ...Or even RHODA!

Please tell me why SHOUT, in particular, is held so high to the heavens! Lately, they don't seem anymore deserving of it than "The Big Bad Studios".

Both do good, and both do bad! Small isn't necessarily "good" and big isn't necessarily "bad"! That's all there is to it!



Get over it.

Shout is out to make money, not to cater to Ironside fanboys like you.

If the OP truly believes that Shout! is better than the bigger studios, then let him feel that way. Don't force him to think the opposite.
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#7
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6/16/09 at 8:57pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

What some don't understand is that studios only release those sets that (1) don't lose the studio money and (2) stand to make as profit. Studios are releasing certain sets to make money, generate income for the company.
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#8
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6/17/09 at 4:20am
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

When a third party like Shout does a TV series the quality of their work is limited by their resources. By definition the studios are licensing series to them that are marginal - hard to turn a profit on. So they have to hold costs down as much as possible in producing the DVD sets. They are also limited by the condition of the original source elements that the studios give them.

Again, we're talking marginal shows. The studios are notorious for failing to properly care for elements from major motion pictures, how much care do you think they devote to preserving TV shows from the era before there was a market for TV shows on home video? They certainly aren't going to spend money restoring whatever they have from those shows before they hand them over to the Shouts! of the world. If the film is scratched, the soundtrack has drop-outs and the episode has edits, that's what Shout! gets and that's what they have to work with. They don't have the resources to digitally restore the picture and track down missing footage.

Regards,

Joe
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#9
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6/17/09 at 4:51am
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino
When a third party like Shout does a TV series the quality of their work is limited by their resources. By definition the studios are licensing series to them that are marginal - hard to turn a profit on. So they have to hold costs down as much as possible in producing the DVD sets. They are also limited by the condition of the original source elements that the studios give them.

Exactly, Joseph. I've been saying this for years when people have gotten on Shout about video and audio quality. They are at the mercy of the studio. And sometimes they only get the rights to the series, and not even an individual studio's prints. In those cases they are forced to go with private collectors and find other sources, usually resulting in even worse video and audio. People really shouldn't hold independents like Shout to the same standards they do the big studios. It's apples and oranges.

Gary "we all want pristine quality, but you have to assign blame where it really belongs" O.
"Do not challenge supernatural unless armed with sword of truth"
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#10
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6/17/09 at 9:53am
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Actually, you're quite incorrect.

I recently purchased Transformers Season 1, the 25th Anniversary collection, and I have to say that this set had far better quality than the previous versions released.

Studios who license their shows for Shout to release do not give Shout inferior or sub-standard versions of their shows. Simon and Simon Season 2 was an excellent release, although the colors on some of the episodes were softer than the Season 1 release. However, the video quality was the best I've been for such an older show.
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#11
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6/21/09 at 2:53am
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Didn't think this idea would bring heated responses!!

I guess the only point I was trying to make was that tv shows that have had successful DVD releases (Cheers, Sanford & Son, for example) may foster interest in the release of spinoff series. And if the 'mothership' companies weren't interested, perhaps they would license those 'smaller' shows to a smaller company that would be willing to do so.

From my own list I provided, I thought that all three original series have had successful releases. Tortellis I thought could be viable as it also featured cameos by some Cheers cast members. Sanford I figured could easily work as it starred Redd Foxx as Fred in the same setting (only minus Fred's son) as well as several of the original supporting cast. Notice I DIDN"T mention the other spinoff, Sanford Arms. (Although the short lived Grady could be marketed as an extra to the Sanford set).

Richie Brockelman I just threw in there for my own curiosity!

I am sure that you all could list your own choices. I have seen threads for Three's A Crowd and the Ropers.

If Warner Bros. would get off their collective asses and release MAVERICK, I could add Young Maverick and Bret Maverick to my llist!
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#12
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6/21/09 at 5:10am
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary OS
In those cases they are forced to go with private collectors and find other sources.

Mmmmmmm, "Other Sources"!

DVD Collection Inventory: TV Episodes - 14,957. Movies - 1,362. Serial Chapters 437

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#13
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6/21/09 at 6:02am
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
Studios who license their shows for Shout to release do not give Shout inferior or sub-standard versions of their shows.

Actually, you are quite incorrect. The couple of exceptions you name prove nothing.

What the studios give to third parties is what they have on hand. Sometimes a show is in good shape and has been properly preserved. You mentioned two. Sometimes the prints have been chewed by rats, or are faded and scratched. What we know for certain is that in [i]these[i] cases, the studios do not spend the money to restore the prints before they let someone else release the series. And Shout or whoever doesn't have to money to restore the shows either. Hence the "substandard" releases. And the wildly varying quality of third party releases.

Or did you think Shout was getting pristine prints and then deliberately scratching them or mess with the sound on purpose? Or maybe you thought I meant the studios were damaging the source materials before handing them over? Because I never said that, either.

I never said that the studios gave nothing but damaged materials to the third party companies. They simply give them what they have available, with no effort to track down missing footage, clean up the masters or anything else. Sometimes that results in a good release, sometimes it doesn't. There's no big mystery here. And finding a good release does absolutely nothing to invalidate my point.

Regards,

Joe
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#14
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6/21/09 at 11:31am
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

How about Shout! doing "Baretta", now Universal dropped it (years ago!). And here's another vote for that Dennis Dugan show, great Post/Carpenter theme song too...''schooool's out, and the days are getting longer...'' (something like that).
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#15
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6/22/09 at 7:58pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph DeMartino
Actually, you are quite incorrect. The couple of exceptions you name prove nothing.

What the studios give to third parties is what they have on hand. Sometimes a show is in good shape and has been properly preserved. You mentioned two. Sometimes the prints have been chewed by rats, or are faded and scratched. What we know for certain is that in [i]these[i] cases, the studios do not spend the money to restore the prints before they let someone else release the series. And Shout or whoever doesn't have to money to restore the shows either. Hence the "substandard" releases. And the wildly varying quality of third party releases.

Or did you think Shout was getting pristine prints and then deliberately scratching them or mess with the sound on purpose? Or maybe you thought I meant the studios were damaging the source materials before handing them over? Because I never said that, either.

I never said that the studios gave nothing but damaged materials to the third party companies. They simply give them what they have available, with no effort to track down missing footage, clean up the masters or anything else. Sometimes that results in a good release, sometimes it doesn't. There's no big mystery here. And finding a good release does absolutely nothing to invalidate my point.

Regards,

Joe


I think to a certain degree you are right. But Shout managed to get uncut episodes of Father Knows Best with no problem after releasing the first season with 14 of the 26 shows cut. So obviously there were uncut episodes available but Shout either never bothered to ask for them or else just took what they were given. And maybe Sony just pulled whatever was easiest for them to send and since Shout didn't say boo, they gave them cut shows.

As for Fox, we know that they hardly remaster anything from their archive. Even for themselves as evidenced by the Lost in Space shows they put out that were off 30 year old transfers. But here's what I don't understand. If you are Shout and you are spending what is most likely somewhere in the 6 figure range to license several series, wouldn't you want to find out what you are getting before paying all of that money? Would you buy a house for a few hundred thousand dollars without seeing it first and completely inspecting it? Or a car? Or anything else for that matter? What kind of sense does it make for a company to pluck down money without knowing first what elements are available to them? That doesn't sound to me like a logical way to do business. Lay out big bucks and then find out that all that's available to you are cut episodes (Rhoda) or 30 year old 1-inch transfers from faded 16mm prints (Room 222). Fox doesn't care. They already got their money. If they cared about the shows, they would have put them out themselves.
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#16
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6/23/09 at 6:09am
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Danny,

Your post, to me, hits the target with TV/DVD sets. There's an inconsistancy in these sets that bothers some of us. Your FKB example is a good one. Another one is Room 222. I love the show and bought the S1 set but unless those prints are cleaned up I'm not getting any more of this one.

Most of us remember the "Route 66" TV/DVD story. As Gary says, it takes an advocate, someone working at the studio with a personal interest to check details and/or cmmunicate the particulars to collectors via a forum to avoid the "Season 1 transfers bad, S2's good, releasing a set in cropped letterbox, then re-issuing it in its original ratio", scenarios.

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I'm a 50's - mid-90's TV/DVD Collector. One DVD show since '96: Firefly 

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#17
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6/23/09 at 6:26am
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
But Shout managed to get uncut episodes of Father Knows Best with no problem after releasing the first season with 14 of the 26 shows cut. So obviously there were uncut episodes available but Shout either never bothered to ask for them or else just took what they were given.

I'm sorry, but I don't follow the "logic" here. Because later seasons of FKB had uncut episodes you assume that the first season also had uncut episode - as well as a set of cut episodes. Sony for unknown reasons, sent Shout the cut versions. But this is still Shout's fault because they should have used their psychic powers to detect the uncut versions and ask Sony for them instead of doing the natural thing and assuming that what Sony gave them was all that Sony had.

Here's a simpler explanation: The only surviving prints of the first season were a mix of cut and uncut episodes. The surviving prints of later seasons were complete episodes. In both cases, Sony gave and Shout got what was available. However, what was available in each case was different.

Occam's razor: The simplest explanation that covers the known facts is the preferred one. I much prefer this to bizarre consipracy theories or explanations that require duplicate sets of prints, gross incompetence or malice on one side and psychic powers (how was Shout supposed to know that the mythical complete first season episodes existed in the first place?) on the other to justify all this misplaced rage.

You know what foks? Sometimes bad things happen in life just because that's the way life is. Not every bad thing is somebody's fault or the result of deliberate action. Too many TV fans act as though the studios are plotting against them or their favorite shows whenever things don't go their way. Sometimes a "substandard" set is the result of everybody doing the best they can within the constraints of time, money and available source material, not a deliberate attempt by the head of Fox or Sony or Shout to dis your favorite show or piss you off personally.

Regards,

Joe
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#18
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6/23/09 at 8:20am
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Shout! is not working with Sony on Father Knows Best, but the estate of Robert Young. these transfers are the ones Young had in his vault. for some reason, the first season prints in his collection were snipped

and Robert Blake still is a bit of a stigma even with not guilty on the wife murder charges

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#19
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6/23/09 at 12:00pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey3rd
Shout! is not working with Sony on Father Knows Best, but the estate of Robert Young. these transfers are the ones Young had in his vault. for some reason, the first season prints in his collection were snipped

Yes, they got the rights from the Young estate. But no, the elements are not coming from them, they are coming from Sony.
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#20
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6/23/09 at 12:07pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Brock
Yes, they got the rights from the Young estate. But no, the elements are not coming from them, they are coming from Sony.

Neil, are you absolutely positive about that? I could have sworn Shout was using prints from the Young estate.

Gary "not sure where I read that, but I'm sure I did read it somewhere (although I guess the info could have been wrong)" O.
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#21
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6/23/09 at 12:55pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Brock
Yes, they got the rights from the Young estate. But no, the elements are not coming from them, they are coming from Sony.


This is what Brian Ward at Shout! Factory posted:

"We're working on confirming the completeness of the episodes. The masters were provided directly from Robert Young's grandson, so we're hoping they're the complete episodes. Still working on it, though."

Doesn't sound like they were tapping the Sony Vault.

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#22
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6/23/09 at 1:33pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey3rd
This is what Brian Ward at Shout! Factory posted:

"We're working on confirming the completeness of the episodes. The masters were provided directly from Robert Young's grandson, so we're hoping they're the complete episodes. Still working on it, though."

Doesn't sound like they were tapping the Sony Vault.

My recollection from reading past posts (whether correct or not we shall see) was that the first season was provided by the Robert Young estate (in cut form from lesser masters). But based on feedback from purchasers, Shout was able to work with Sony to dig out complete episodes for season 2 and on (based on original masters).

From what I recall, I believe Sony did this without receiving any additional financial benefits. I believe season 1 was left as is only because it had already been released, even though better masters were available from Sony.

Does that ring any bells with anyone?
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#23
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6/23/09 at 3:34pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Brad,

That's the way I remember it as well.

Regarding Joseph's post earlier, good post. I agree on some of his points but there have been occasions where studios didn't do the research, used sub-std prints when others were available, etc. I refer to Infinity's use of un-remastered prints for their original S1V1 release when, their words, the cleaned up prints were available.

Just my 2 cents but there are 2 sides to the TV/DVD studio story, imo. I believe in giving credit where it's due but I also don't see anything wrong with constructive comments when a TV/DVD set is below average in quality.

"Checkmate King Two Out"   Jeff Willis  "Combat! A Selmur Production"

I'm a 50's - mid-90's TV/DVD Collector. One DVD show since '96: Firefly 

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#24
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6/23/09 at 4:38pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Wow. I don't have any recollection of ever reading that anywhere, but it would make sense in that Seasons 2 & 3 have been much better, quality wise. I had just assumed that the R.Y. Estate had not paid attention to what they were pulling out of their vaults the first time around. I know for a fact that this problem has happened on other sets in the past (A&C Show & Route 66, to name a couple).

I'd really like to know for sure about this, because I admit I've been really hard on Sony in the past. If they did this, then I need to give them a little applause.

Gary "if anyone can find this info online, please post a link" O.
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#25
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6/23/09 at 5:27pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

This is what happens when you get old like me. I just confirmed what Brad (and Jeff) said they remembered reading/hearing. TVShowsonDVD.com did report, prior to the Season 2 release, that:

Quote:
The first season was a mix of syndicated and non-syndicated episodes. Due to overwhelming fan request, Sony agreed to dig deeper for Season Two, and came up with the longer versions for every episode.

So everyone, including Sony, is to be commended on this issue. Don't know why I couldn't remember that. Guess I have a "Sony did something good for a b/w show" memory block. After all, it is a rare occasion when they have any interest in their b/w TV catalog. LOL

Gary "someone mentioned in another FKB thread that we should still be thankful that the RY estate had control over this, because if Sony had owned this series outright we'd probably never have seen it released" O.
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#26
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6/23/09 at 9:41pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary OS
This is what happens when you get old like me. I just confirmed what Brad (and Jeff) said they remembered reading/hearing. TVShowsonDVD.com did report, prior to the Season 2 release, that:



So everyone, including Sony, is to be commended on this issue. Don't know why I couldn't remember that. Guess I have a "Sony did something good for a b/w show" memory block. After all, it is a rare occasion when they have any interest in their b/w TV catalog. LOL

Gary "someone mentioned in another FKB thread that we should still be thankful that the RY estate had control over this, because if Sony had owned this series outright we'd probably never have seen it released" O.

So, the fact that the just grabbed the first set of tapes they could pull for the first season is okay? And the fact that Shout just took whatever they were given is okay? Wow, so easy to please, aren't we? If anything, the fact that they showed how easily they could lay their hands on a set of complete, unedited episodes when they were prodded should make people even more angry. It just means that they were too damn lazy to make sure they pulled the proper tapes the first time and obviously Shout has no quality control whatsoever. It's only AFTER people scream bloody murder over a shoddy release that Shout actually bothers to wake up and do something. The fact that more than half the episodes had running times that were 3 and a half minutes short didn't set off any alarms really makes them look like they are incompetent at what they are doing.

Just curious why no one has responded to my prior post where I asked as to why a company would lay out hundreds of thousands of dollars and not even bother to check beforehand as to what elements were available to them. Anyone care to hazard a guess? I know if it was my company, I sure wouldn't do business that way. Especially with considering that everyone knows Fox doesn't remaster. All you have to do is look at what Room 222 or Rhoda has looked like any time they've aired since their network runs. Neither show has ever looked good in syndication.
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#27
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6/23/09 at 10:18pm
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
Originally Posted by vnisanian2001


Get over it.

Shout is out to make money, not to cater to Ironside fanboys like you.


Funny how it took them months to come up with that explanation after the sales stats were already available to them. And then on top of that their own self-appointed spokesman added to his perfect record of giving out misinformation on this title by saying that the license for it was gone from them, when in fact it wasn't (but oh, if only it had!)

The level of apologias for Shout! in terms of how they handled the "Ironside" situation REGARDLESS of whether there was a legitimate reason for abandoning it, come off as total sycophancy to me. The bottom line is that their PR handling of this title and their misinformation on "Rhoda" and the "Bill Cosby Show" rank right up with the bad conduct the big studios have engaged in and which we've never been shrinking violets about when it comes to criticizing the studios that engage in that kind of conduct.
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#28
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6/24/09 at 2:30am
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Re: Let a Smaller Company Do It

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Brock
So, the fact that the just grabbed the first set of tapes they could pull for the first season is okay? And the fact that Shout just took whatever they were given is okay? Wow, so easy to please, aren't we?

I can't speak for anyone else, but in answer to your 3 questions:

NO, it's not OK.

And again, NO, it's not OK.

And finally, NO, I'm not that easy to please.

But since I have no control or authority at Shout or Sony, and I don't see any TV stations that are running FKB at full length (or at all), I'm kinda stuck having to accept that 1st Season set. It's simply a case of something is better than nothing. Doesn't mean I'm easily pleased though. And it definitely doesn't mean that I think Shout, and the person/people involved in pulling prints didn't do a poor job in checking out the product before doing the transfer work to dvd. That's where a true advocate and lover of the show being on staff would have been nice. I can guarantee you that if I had been working at Shout and had any pull whatsoever that mistake would NOT have been made. But I don't work there, so that's that.

Gary "just because I'm willing to give kudos to a company for correcting a mistake on a follow up set, it doesn't mean I still don't hold them accountable for the mistake in the first place" O.
"Do not challenge supernatural unless armed with sword of truth"
                                             ...CHARLIE CHAN ON TREASURE ISLAND

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