Season 5 of MTM Show. Is This a Gamble

"again, that is what they want you to think."
It's just common sense that if the first set doesn't sell, there won't be a second.

"there are many, many people who only want the complete set."
I'm sure there are.

"do you really think that bonanza will stop at season 1 out of 14 ?  or that the fugitive will stop halfway thru season 3 ?"
If they don't sell, yes.

"but as long as there are enough people like you, who will support them season by season, we will have to put up with a slow dribble, instead of the entire ball of wax at one time."
Eventhough it means that a series will continue to be released, I apologize for buying sets one at a time.

"it would probably shock and outrage you if you found out that the studios contracted to have the complete series done from the outset, because it was cheaper and more cost effective.  and then sell it to the consumer as expensively as possible, one season at a time.  it wouldnt cause me to blink an eye - i half-way expect that they do this."

I'm sure there's example of where that's true but it doesn't change the fact that it the first set doesn't sell, there won't be a second set.

I, for one, was glad Fox changed their mind and only released Season 5 at this time.   I already own the first 4 seasons and didn't want to have to purchase them all over again to get the final 3 seasons.  I am hopeful that Fox will come through with the final two seasons.

I'm just glad the International Olympic Committee wasn't involved in this release.

I've watched two episodes so far, including my favorite "The System."     I wanted to see if the original voiceover in the end credits from the original broadcast was intact which had Mary mentioning that if Pittsburgh were to lose the real Super Bowl IX, which was the day after this episode first aired, "You heard it here first!"    This was on the Nick at Nite reruns in the mid-90s but the TV Land Canada version I've had no longer had it.     The DVD version is the latter.

hi travis,

you dont have to worry - mtm will be out in its entirety, just like many other shows.

bonanza is to tv, what elvis is to rock and roll.  i cant think of any other tv show that penetrated into the american psyche like bonanza.  you might have to be in your 50s though, to fully appreciate that statement.  the studios are not worried about bonanza selling.  they want to make sure that they get all they can out of it, a second time around.  this is the main reason why shows are dribbled out.  all this "if it doesnt sell" stuff is just what the studios want you to think.

just look at tvs.  it went from 17" to 19" to 21", etc.  they took the smallest jump in size that they could, that would get people buying new sets.  if they went from 17 to 25, they would miss out on a ton of sales.

as Key Luke from kung fu would say, "that is life, grasshopper".

Actually, I find the image quite soft this go-round.  Much softer than before.  But part of me feels it may be how the show was shot this season, because the titles on the end credits seem quite sharp.  It still looks good, mind you, but just softer than other seasons.

And the lack of an episode listing is quite telling.  I think Fox has stripped this down about as far as can be.  If this set doesn't sell, I really doubt we'll see 6, 7 or the complete series.  I certainly don't think it can presented any cheaper than they've done it with S5.

I'm only through Disc One so far, but no music loss or substitutions yet, and there' s been quite a bit of singing so far.  So that's good.

I think it was a nice release overall. I could see the writing on teh wall that we were not gonna be able to continue with the same stype slip cover cases that we had before, was shocked there was no episode guide insert.

The first episode looked soft, it seemed to get better by the 4th episode. (as far as  I got, I figured I should actually watch one episode per month until they release the 6th season)

I bought mine at Best Buy but took my copy to customer service told them I wanted to price match WALMART and they just looked it up online and gave it to me for 18.00 and some change(before tax)

Are you saying that a studio will release a series just because it's a classic and that sales don't matter? I'm not trying to be rude or argumentative but that's flat out wrong. I wish they did release classic shows with no concern about sales but that isn't the way it is. All's you have to do is look at all the shows that have had stalled at one or two or three releases to see that.

hi travis,

i dont take you as being rude or argumentative.  you are voicing your opinion - that is a good thing.  i am not sure which shows you are referring to that have stalled ?  and how long have they stalled ?

i agree with you that a studio releases a show in order to get money.  it is the only reason they do so.  a show like bonanza will sell.  but when a lot of people are willing to buy it season by season, that is exactly what the studios will do.  they are only concerned about maximizing their profits.

if we, the public, only bought complete packages - then the studios would only put out complete packages.  sure, they would choose the shows that they think people will buy.  will they be wrong one out of a hundred times ?  sure, but not very often.

but they would only make half the money that they do now.  they are sitting on a gold mine.  they arent just gonna do nothing.  i personally am not gonna play that game.  i want a series in its entirety, so i can view it from beginning to end, and see it in a different light than when it was originally released.  if the studios want to do that, fine.  if not, they dont get my money.

     Quote:

Jimmy, I wish with all my heart that what you have said was the truth.  I wish that a studio would be 100% committed to releasing each and every series they start until it's completed.  Unfortunately we have a plethora of examples that prove the opposite is true.  Off the top of my head here are some series, many being iconic classics, that have absolutely stalled out or been completely abandoned with no sign of returning.  I'm going by memory on how long it's been since their last releases and may be off a bit, but the gist of my point will be the same regardless:

LEAVE IT TO BEAVER - 2 seasons released, 4 more to go (and it's been a good 3 years since the last release)

FLIPPER - 1 season released, 2 more to go (and it's been a good 2 years since the last release)

HAVE GUN, WILL TRAVEL - 3 released, 3 to go (and it's been about 4 years since the last release): this one may finally be coming back, but it was dead in the water for years!

BIG VALLEY - 1 & 1/2 seasons released, 2 & 1/2 to go (been about 2 or 3 years since the last release)

CHIPs - 2 seasons released, 3 or 4 to go I believe (been over a year since last release)

RAWHIDE - 3 released, 5 to go I believe (not on any upcoming release series, definitely stalled for time being)

HAPPY DAYS - 4 released, many more seasons to go (same as above)

IRONSIDE - 2 released, more to go (been a couple of years since the last release, I believe)

KOJAK, DRAGNET, and other assorted Universal properties have only 1 release and have been off the schedule for years now.

HAZEL, GROWING PAINS, BENSON, and other assorted Sony properties... Same as above.


On and on and on we could go.  The bottom line is that there are many shows that have stalled out or been abandoned completely - and we have zero evidence that they are on the schedule for a future release.  Some pop up after a lengthy delay, like the MTMS.  But there is no assurance that will happen every time across the board.  I'd like to see complete series releases as much as the next guy.  A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush every single time.  So of course I want my favorites released completely all at once so I know for sure I'll have every episode.  But it just doesn't work that way.  Some shows really do get abandoned because of poor sales.  That's just indisputable, IMHO.


Gary "not to mention the fact that the last part of VTTBOTS is still sitting out there in limbo" O.

I can think of a show that had just as big an impact as Bonanza:  All in the Family, which got as far as something like season 6.  The studios do indeed worry about these things selling.   This is 2009, not 1959.  Westerns are not as iconic with the current generation as they were when I was young.  The fact that you have to be in your 50s to fully appreciate your assessment of Bonanza is exactly why the studios worry when it comes out on DVD.

Granted, the Adam years stand a good chance of coming out on DVD.  But does anyone really expect the entire run of Bonanza and Gunsmoke to make it onto DVD?  The format should live so long.

And, sadly, my (former) contact at Sony said that (as of last March anyway) Sony had no plans in the forseeable future to continue on with AITF.

hi guys,

thanks for the replies.

as an aside, all in the family is not in the same category as bonanza. aitf contains all sorts of racism, bigotry and other crap.  it may have been popular at the time, but it does not have the same legendary status of bonanza or i love lucy or dick van dyke or andy griffith, etc.

of the shows that were mentioned, i will pick 2 of them as standouts that i believe had an impact on american society in such a way that they would still be highly desired.

1) leave it to beaver

2) happy days

can you show me stats that these 2 series had poor sales ?  and if so, what if any, were the complaints ?  one thing i know is that many people are complaining about shows not having original music on it.  i dont think this would apply to beaver, but happy days had all sorts of hits on it, such that licensing problems could be huge.

i look at the reviews of every show now, before i buy it.  there are some shows that i did not get because of what was said on the reviews - mainly that the producer screwed things up - not that i did not like the show.  like they put out the tvland edited versions instead of the original airings, etc.

as another aside, i think you will find that older people are much more apt to wait for entire series to be released, and have more the frame of mind that i have about it, as opposed to younger people.  i think that has an effect on which shows the studios decide to release, first.

Edited by jimmyjet - 10/7/09 at 10:04pm

Earlier today I was reading complaints on Amazon about how Shout! Factory is releasing "It's Gary Shandling's Show" only as a complete set instead of in single season sets. So the studios can't win on this issue. I prefer complete sets but am resigned to getting my favorite shows any way I can get them.

just look at the popularity of the litb thread here on this forum.  seems like i am not too far off, when calling a classic show, and one that people will buy.  so i will say it again - people will buy litb.  and it looks like the entire series will be released.  just like the mtm show - another classic that will sell.

think about this the next time that a series seems "halted".  there can be many reasons for this - not just that it did not sell.  i think you will find that most shows will be re-released.

another thing one will find is the number of people who will quit watching television altogether.  i have already done this.  anything i watch in the future will be from my own library - what i want, when i want, how i want - and a heckuva lot better quality.  we are still at the bottom rung of an industry that will continue to grow leaps and bounds, that of people having extensive video libraries.

we now have the ability to see this stuff at the resolution that it was filmed in, on computer monitors - we never saw this when the shows were originally aired.

i was watching an episode of time tunnel, and i could count the number of wrinkle lines on james darrin's face when he smiled.  even with high definition tv, you dont get that good of resolution.  along with a million commercials, etc. 

time is the one thing that we cant buy.  why waste it with a bunch of silliness, like commercials, etc.

I believe that AITF is still very relevant. I believe that the little life lessons that Archie learned still need to be taught. I believe that they need to be aired and addressed on contemporary television, but they are not. Nobody's talking about those things on tv anymore, and they should. That's not to say that a couple more dvd releases will solve society's problems, but I believe we are in an incredibly intolerant and paranoid period of history and nobody's addressing those issues in an artistic forum. All they talk about on tv today is boobs and relationships.

It seems to me that what makes contemporary TV so unwatchable is that almost everything is inevitably the kind of in-your-face preaching that AITF ushered in, and all of it from one end of the political spectrum only.     AITF does not age well over time on its "teaching life's lessons" because the character of Meathead who was Norman Lear's mouthpiece for PC wisdom week after week comes off more and more like a mooch who should have learned to keep his mouth shut and be grateful for the fact that Archie, for whatever faults he had that were a part of his background, still was willing to give him free room and board.      And it also was to put it bluntly, the most unrealistic depiction of how someone of Archie's background would have thought about a lot of things.    (Case in point.    Archie Bunker types were in fact lifelong Democrats who didn't cast their first GOP ballot until 1972.    The conceit of Archie and his anti-FDR rantings at Maude or being a long-time Republican is a Hollywood conceit designed to set up a straw man week after week;  likewise most Archie Bunker types were in fact Catholic, but we had to make Archie an improbable Protestant just so we could get a round of Pope jokes.    And don't get me started on the absurdity of Archie ending up by accident in a Klan meeting, but Meathead somehow never managed to cross paths with Weatherman style radicals).

What I like about AITF was how they could on occasion brilliantly do things that owed themselves more to forms of traditional comedy.   When Archie gets locked in the cellar that's a funny episode because of the great comic timing and is a situation mined from something traditional.    When an AITF episode is based on a soapbox point, I skip over it.

I watch a fair amount of modern television and I can't think any live action network show that has any guts and will talk about politics or race. They're too scared of angering a few letter writing losers to do that. Occasionally, The Simpsons and South Park take shots at people in politics but they take shots at both sides and say that they both are lousy.

Well, back to the subject at hand:  I'm REALLY enjoying Season 5 and keep my fingers crossed that Season 6 will be released in the next year or two!

Thanks, Eric, for bringing this thread back to the subject.  I, too am enjoying this set and hope we will see Season 6 sooner than it took from season 4 to season 5.

my comments did not have to do with the relevance of a show, at least as you are describing it.  by your definition, "i love lucy" certainly isnt relevant.

i am talking about which shows penetrated the american society with a lasting impression.  not just about how popular a show was with its ratings, etc.  for example, in the music business - elvis, dylan and the beatles will far outlast michael jackson, when it comes to having a truly lasting effect.

in my opinion, "bonanza" is the number one all-time tv show, with regards to penetrating society.  most kids know about the show, just like most kids know about elvis presley.  that is nowhere near true about aitf.  disney's wild world of color was the show that started people buying color sets.  but bonanza was the one that blew it away.  it was nbc's premier color show from the very get-go.  it was not only a western, but a family show - that portrayed family values that were thought of as ideal to the american society.

i can positively tell you that studios are not worried about that show selling.  if they put out all 14 seasons at once, it would sell off the shelf.  but the studios would still make less than half what they would make by selling one season at a time.  and that in a nutshell, is why the shows are being sold one season at a time, for the most part.

Jim, and Ethan, will you two PLEASE STOP GOING OFF-TOPIC?!

ETA: You too, Jack and Travis!

Edited by vnisanian2001 - 10/18/09 at 1:15pm

Somehow, I don't think the season debut of "Law And Order" becoming an advocacy forum for attacking the Bush Administration on "torture" policy to the point of giving us the laughable conceit of a New York DA abusing his authority to go into a place that in real world he would have no jurisdiction over and would find himself disbarred and driven from office if he ever engaged in such a stunt, is a case where there was a lack of "guts" re: politics.     Lack of integrity perhaps, but guts no.

^ I don't watch Law And Order but OK (eventhough I think that saying torture is wrong has nothing at all to do with your political viewpoint). That being said, your initial post made it sound like television is inundated with shows talking about politics or race and that just isn't the case.

EDIT: removed some text that potentially violates HTF rules.
Edited by TravisR - 10/18/09 at 1:45pm

As it has been pointed out by several people, this is a thread about Season 5 of The Mary Tyler Moore Show.  Let's stick to that topic.  If you want to discuss any other series please take it to another thread, not this one!!

I finished watching season 5 the other night.  Really enjoyed it.  I just hope I don't have to wait another 4 years to see season 6.

I found this season to be the funniest so far.  Glad my memory of it held up.  From Mary going to jail to Ted's orientation of TBFBS, I really had some great belly laughs.

One of my all time favorite exchanges in the entire series:
MARY: "Sue Ann, did you crash the men's room?"
SUE ANN: "Of course not!  I went as somebody's guest." 
 

I agree, I think this was the show at it's peak.  The Ted Baxter Famous Broadcast school is one of my all time favorites from any series.  It just seems like a perfect episode with a great punchline.

ted baxter was my least favorite character.  i usually dont like those "dumb" parts that tv shows would put in.  i think mainly, because they are not believable, in the sense that any real person is like that.

Then I think you've been very lucky in who you've met in your life.  I've met a few people as dumb as Ted.

In fact, you don't even have to "meet" them.  Tonight on The Amazing Race one of the contestants went up to an airline ticket window and said he need to buy tickets to "the Persian Gulf."  When it was explained that that wasn't a specific country, but a region, he turned to the team behind him and said, "Turns out the Persian Gulf isn't even a country!"   

Sad but true, and that's as dumb as anything to ever some out of Ted Baxter's mouth.