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Color treatment (BD releases)

#1
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Yesterday I was discussing the Fistful Of Dollars BD release from RHV/Sony...

















I was saying by looking at those images, the BD release have a more red skin color in all actors at the same time... and not only that, stuffs in scenario like walls and Eastwood's hat have also the same tone applied... the hat is darker on DVD, the walls are normal, and the list goes on. It seems they have painted everything using the same red tone/colour.

How can we be sure all BD releases are not having the same issue (if it's an issue, please feel free to correct me). More than that, all reviewers are looking exactly for them? I was told the Godfather collection was great, but judging by the pictures I saw, it seems the colours were boosted sometimes.

The Matrix (Ultimate DVD and BD releases) is now presented with a green tone (?) in some scenes that wasn't there before. Not that I like the old release, which is awful compared to the new ones. But c'mon, that green tone was there when we saw the theatrical version? Isn't dangerous to accept all those modifications with no hesitation, no research to find out how much the image/audio from the movie was changed in that process?

How can you say which one is right? Isn't there someone comparing old masters (from VHS/LD/and even broadcast) with all these releases? To at least see what they changed and we are now accepting gracefully?

I am far from being an expert in this area, but I feel someone should address those differences (especially when it comes to the original audio tracks), and I was once told everytime they release a movie into a different media, it will have to be different (they will never be the same), they just need to be restored into one acceptable margin and that should be fine.

I am not saying either the old masters were better than the new ones - perhaps something between will suffice. But once again, aren't we accepting anything that is delivered these days? Think about the Loudness War and you will know what I mean.

"While technology progresses at the speed of light, it's implementation is filtered through the speed of bureaucracy."

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#2
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Re: Color treatment (BD releases)

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stuart
I was saying by looking at those images, the BD release have a more red skin color in all actors at the same time... and not only that, stuffs in scenario like walls and Eastwood's hat have also the same tone applied... the hat is darker on DVD, the walls are normal, and the list goes on. It seems they have painted everything using the same red tone/colour.

How can we be sure all BD releases are not having the same issue (if it's an issue, please feel free to correct me). More than that, all reviewers are looking exactly for them? I was told the Godfather collection was great, but judging by the pictures I saw, it seems the colours were boosted sometimes.
There are several things going on here.

First of all, Blu-ray uses a different colorspace than DVD. It's not significantly different, but depending on the playback and capture software on the PC used for the screengrabs, the colors may be affected. Some reviewers do it right, some don't.

Second of all, different masters can be used by the studios with different levels of approval by those involved in the film. Without direct confirmation from them, it's hard to know which is the "correct" version. In the case of Godfather, however, we know that the Blu-ray release was overseen by the cinematographer and a few other members of the original crew, and therefore we can be reasonably sure that the changes were meant to represent the intended look of the film. After seeing different versions of the film for several years, you can get used to the DVD as being the "correct" version, but when the person responsible for determining the look of the film (and not necessarily the director *cough* Lucas *cough) says it's spot on, I'll believe them.
Quote:
The Matrix (Ultimate DVD and BD releases) is now presented with a green tone (?) in some scenes that wasn't there before. Not that I like the old release, which is awful compared to the new ones. But c'mon, that green tone was there when we saw the theatrical version? Isn't dangerous to accept all those modifications with no hesitation, no research to find out how much the image/audio from the movie was changed in that process?
Not sure what you mean here. The Matrix film was different in the initial DVD release because they didn't originally think to make an obvious differentiation between the settings. For the new release (including the Blu-ray), the filmmakers went back and recolored the scenes set in the Matrix to both define the look of that setting, and to match the look of the sequels. IIRC all of this was stated before the release, so it wasn't as if they were just foisting this on us.

And, of course, the idea behind "theatrical" viewing is for the most part flawed. Unless you had the chance to view a pristine print on a well-calibrated projector system from the optimal distance at a correctly light-controlled theater and have a photographic memory, then you have only a general idea of the look of the film. I can't think of more than a handful of theaters in the world, most of which are single-screen locations for premieres in places like LA, NYC, London, etc., that could accurately represent the film exactly as it was intended. You certainly wouldn't be able to see it that way at your average gazillion-screen multiplexes, or even classic 65mm/70mm-capable locations like DC's Uptown. And even then, you'd have to depend on memory, which for almost everyone is imperfect at best for the movie itself, let alone things like contrast and color timing.
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How can you say which one is right? Isn't there someone comparing old masters (from VHS/LD/and even broadcast) with all these releases? To at least see what they changed and we are now accepting gracefully?
Like I said above, if we have input from those who know how the image is supposed to look, then it's reasonable to say that they know which one is right. But nobody outside the owners/distributors of the film has access to the masters, original or otherwise, so people can only compare the final product. There are a few enthusiasts and reviewers that do those comparisons.

But if you're asking why we don't have any comparisons before the product is mastered, transferred, and encoded, well I'm not sure why you'd think we'd get that chance. Movies, just like pretty much every product being manufactured, are available to us only as consumers. It's not as if the consumer test drives cars before they hit the assembly line, or test drugs before they leave the labs. Just like movies being transferred to home video, those are all done by the companies themselves, and maybe the occasional government agency. And given that the perception of that movie by someone who didn't work on it is going to be subjective based on a variety of influences (like the all-but-certain-to-be-imperfect "theatrical" experience above), to say nothing of the fact that everyone sees a film differently, I'm not sure how useful this would be.
Quote:
I am far from being an expert in this area, but I feel someone should address those differences (especially when it comes to the original audio tracks), and I was once told everytime they release a movie into a different media, it will have to be different (they will never be the same), they just need to be restored into one acceptable margin and that should be fine.
Well, as you yourself put it, how can we know what's the margin for "acceptable?" There are a ton of technical and economic factors that can affect the different media that make it virtually impossible to have the same exact look across every single one of those media types, such as the aforementioned colorspace differences, or the rights to the film changing over time or between countries.
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I am not saying either the old masters were better than the new ones - perhaps something between will suffice. But once again, aren't we accepting anything that is delivered these days?
I'm a little confused here. Who's saying that? After all, the very existence of these boards and the debate on them seems to refute the idea that we're accepting anything that's delivered.
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#3
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Re: Color treatment (BD releases)

Quote:
I was told the Godfather collection was great, but judging by the pictures I saw, it seems the colours were boosted sometimes.

I kind of had the same feeling.
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#4
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Re: Color treatment (BD releases)

Speaking only for 'The Matrix', I think it has always had a green tint, though not equally applied in every scene. I haven't compared for a very long time, but the DVD seemed more obvious, probably due to less accuracy.

I remember the green issue being discussed in the past, across several forums, and from what I remember it was the director's intent. Trying to remember the theatrical appearance is too much of a stretch. And as stated above, that is the least consistent and reliable evaluation.
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#5
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Re: Color treatment (BD releases)

With every passing hour, the original film elements including the negatives for many titles are fading.

It may very well be impossible to maintain the color palette that was once present on the scanned film element used to creaate the SD master used for DVD when the element is scanned years later to create the HD master.

I am not saying this is the problem in every case, but it may be one possible explanation for color differences between a master scanned 6 or 7 years ago in SD and a newer HD scan.

Vern
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#6
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Re: Color treatment (BD releases)

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stuart
I was told the Godfather collection was great, but judging by the pictures I saw, it seems the colours were boosted sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sestamuch
I kind of had the same feeling.

And you are both wrong. For one thing, you can't judge based simply on "pictures" (by which I assume you mean screen grabs).

For another, folks who actually HAVE the new Blu-rays of THE GODFATHER films have no doubt watched the "Emulsional Rescue" featurette (and if you haven't, STOP READING THIS RIGHT NOW AND DO SO), which goes into great detail exactly how meticulously these films were restored and color-timed to match the visual look of approved archival film prints. In fact, I attended a screening of a 35mm answer print of the newly restored THE GODFATHER* a little over a year ago that Gordon Willis- the cinematographer who photographed the film along with II and III- also attended, and during the Q&A afterward he remarked that the color of the restored print was, and I quote, "Dead on."

That pretty much ends this discussion with regards to THE GODFATHER, no?

Vincent

* Note that the 35mm print I saw was derived from the same master that was used to create the Blu-ray- the 4K digital restoration scanned from the original negatives.
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#7
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Months ago I discussed this subject/thread with another member from HTF (mr. Alex/Wiz) and here's a few points he expressed in his post (I tried to translate his comments):

Quote:

The whole color timing argument is very interesting, but also very complicated as I have mentioned before. I am used to be very throughout about this, but when there's a lack of direct input from filmmakers or transfer based on that, everything is speculation. However, some things must be considered:

- First, I would say that, despite what we look when it comes to texture elements (that analog feel characteristic from the film stock or even the digital noise from digital captures), a natural look is not exactly something very considered in terms of coloration. I can vouch for that and say that I don't recall seeing a movie with a very natural color palette.

For example: sci-fi movies are used to have a cold color timing, usually with a blue or green tone. Comedy and adventure have colors more vibrant/rich/saturated. Horror/thriller movies are darker, exacly the opposite - they offer sometimes a cold aspect, no saturation and more pastel colors, in general, in case of those with a more visceral/brutal approach. Strong dramas are also that way with opaque colors in order to help building a depressive feeling.

That means the whole coloration used is always helping the creative process required for those movies. That's why all of them have this color timing correction, otherwise it would be too easy, just shoot the movie and it's all done.

It's also used to correct discrepancies in the way the light from the cameras is used on some scenes, but it doesn't escape from being another manipulation where they disregard the natural look from the movie in order to achieve a specific visual for the audience.

That's why it became a standard the mastering/calibration in the D6,5K process, in a way that the different visual styles will be always achieved, no matter how individual the display characteristics are. Otherwise it would be a lot more confusing.

- Despite of being a parameter, old versions in rare exceptions, are a precise reference. That's because the telecine quality and the process used to transfer those movies in the age of VHS/LD/and many times DVD, was too deficient, and after that, the own color space from each one of those formats was inferior compared to the next, and still those elements being used in conditions far from being ideal.

The transfer quality is one of aspects that evolved so much in the last years, not only in terms of technology but also it's now very sensitive/careful even about that. In other words, a while ago, the mastering process was simply bad compared to what we have today.

- It's obvious there's still revisionism as well and some directors are more prone to the fact (Lucas being a classic example). Matrix was reviewed to be adapted to the logic from the sequels (with different colors in/outside the Matrix).

But the general rule in the new works was exactly the involvement from some of the original filmmakers (directors, producers, editors, cinematography crew), or even specialists/film historians (in some cases the movie is too old and the people involved are no longer alive), with the objective to restore the original intentions that sometimes were not even seen in home-video or even most of theaters, considering the deterioration/bad quality from some copies and many exhibitions.

All things considered, in my opinion, in the A Fistfull of Dollars case, the new presentation in BD format it's really better than the DVD if you compare the color timing, for different reasons:

- First, the DVD is not anamorphic, it was released many years ago and the master used was awful. For me the colors used are far from being natural, it's exactly the opposite, I think it's clear that it comes from a old and dark film stock, and really suffering in terms of coloration. There's even a green cast (?), looking stale.

- Second reason: from what I heard, the restoration had the involvement from some of the original filmmakers, not the director, obviously.

- Lastly, compared to all western movies I saw on BD - new ones (3:10 To Yuma, The Proposition, Appaloosa) or restored (The Professionals, The Searchers, Rio Bravo, The Cowboys) I would say the visual from this "A Firstfull of Dollars" (BD) really makes sense with all those other presentations. All of them are depicting a dry, with a very hot sun, western, which naturally gives the cast this red skin tone (indians were called that way).

The DVD version is too dark, it seems the sky is cloud, and if I had to judge both of them and say who's more natural, I'd say the BD is much closer to the vision of hot and arid American west.

Even "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly", with all the DNR applied, features a very similar coloration compared to "A Fistfull.." in BD.

Regarding the audio, the preservation and inclusion of those original tracks are something that I always fought for, even on lossless format, that apart from Criterion releases, are not being used on BDs from other studios). And even in some cases (from the inevitable remixes), I am always looking for simplicity and fidelity compared to the original mixing, avoiding gimmicks, like new foleys and spiffy sound effects.

"While technology progresses at the speed of light, it's implementation is filtered through the speed of bureaucracy."

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#8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias View Post

With every passing hour, the original film elements including the negatives for many titles are fading.

It may very well be impossible to maintain the color palette that was once present on the scanned film element used to creaate the SD master used for DVD when the element is scanned years later to create the HD master.

I am not saying this is the problem in every case, but it may be one possible explanation for color differences between a master scanned 6 or 7 years ago in SD and a newer HD scan.

Vern

Equally, though, modern telecine techniques now allow for much more digital manipulation than they did ten years ago. It's certainly much easier now to do things like rescuing the colour from a faded negative, and the results can be astonishing.

Forthcoming UK DVD releases database: Incoming.

Forthcoming UK Blu-ray releases database: Incoming.
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#9
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Quote:
  It's certainly much easier now to do things like rescuing the colour from a faded negative, and the results can be astonishing.

Sorry, but you can't make something from nothing.  I know, because I've tried.  Unfortunately, the different color layers fade at different rates.  If you want an example of a BD where they tried and failed, simply look at any of the night scenes from "South Pacific".  The night scenes were originally a dark blue, not a light turquoise.  You can also see the uneven fading and colors comparing the left and right sides of the image.  That is a state of the art transfer, and it looks spectacular during brightly lit day scenes, but nothing could rescue the original colors from the night scenes.

Another example of age related issues is very apparent when comparing the color of the BD release to the color of the DVD release of "That's Entertainment".  Wierd and abnormal colors that look nothing like the original abound in certain sequences on the BD.

In the end, it all depends on the title, the film stock, and the original processing lab.  Some negatives do very well, others very poorly. In some cases, protection elements can be used to save the day, in others they are bad, missing, or incomplete.

Vern

Edited by Vern Dias - 7/6/2009 at 05:08 pm GMT
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