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2009 MLB Thread

#781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem View Post

Okay, I didn't realize something, but have now read the wrap-up.  Nick Green had two throwing errors in that fateful inning last night.  So Papelbon can't be blamed for that one, I don't think.  He did walk a batter and gave up some hits, but without the errors, the BoSox might have won the game.

I did not see the game...or the ninth inning.  But here I go anyway:

If I owned a major league team, I would immediately fire any manager who allowed his players to employ "defensive indifference" when a player tried to advance a base in a late inning. 

This is a technique I have NEVER understood and would not tolerate from any team of mine. 

Also, in terms of scoring, I would insist that all baserunners be credited with a stolen base in those situations.

Let's look at last night's game as an example.  From my understanding, here's how it went.

  • Papelbon walks Cust to lead off the inning.
  • Cust takes second on DI.
  • Suzuki grounds out to 2nd base...advancing Cust to 3rd.  (1 out).
  • Sweeney pops out to shortstop (2 out).
  • Then, double, single, stolen base, single, strikeout.  Game tied. Sox lose in extras.

Do you see where I'm going here?  By not allowing Cust to take 2nd base free-of-charge (because his run doesn't "mean anything"), the Sox would have kept the double-play in order and Sweeney's pop-up to short would have been the third out of the inning and the Red Sox would win.

I have seen this happen SO MANY times that I cannot understand why it continues to happen on a regular basis.  You have professional players on the field who are being well-paid to "make the plays."  If he's going to steal the base, so be it...at least you are getting beat while trying to prevent it.  Allowing any runner a free base is completely against any logical sense of the game as I know it.  I cannot imagine Earl Weaver ever would have even considered something as asinine as "defensive indifference." 

Terry Francona should be ashamed of himself. 

Maybe the Sox don't turn the double play on Suzuki's grounder (because you can't "assume it", after all--another stupid scoring rule), but maybe they would.  We'll never know, though...because they NEVER HAD THE CHANCE! 

There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

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#782
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I've never understood the usefulness of defensive indifference. Every run does "mean something." It's what my LL coach told me years ago.

I see the garage, but I don't saw the garage. You are speaking incorrectly. You are moidering the king's English! Et cetera! See, saw, see...
     -Curly Howard, "Dizzy Pilots"

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#783
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Ya know, Ed...even in Little League, though, I remember telling the catcher, "DON'T throw the ball!"  because you don't want the boys (at THAT level of talent) to start throwing the ball around leading to an easy score.

But I'm talking about the major leagues here. " THROW the ball!  It's what you are getting paid to do!"

This is one of those things about baseball that really gets my goat. 

There are managers who will NEVER sacrifice because "you only get 27 outs and each one of them is too precious."  While I might not agree with that philosophy all the time, it is, at least, one I could live with because you are not giving the opposing team a free base or an extra out. 

There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

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#784
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@ Mike
Quote:
 Ya know, Ed...even in Little League, though, I remember telling the catcher, "DON'T throw the ball!"  because you don't want the boys (at THAT level of talent) to start throwing the ball around leading to an easy score.

Very true.

Quote:
 There are managers who will NEVER sacrifice because "you only get 27 outs and each one of them is too precious."  While I might not agree with that philosophy all the time, it is, at least, one I could live with because you are not giving the opposing team a free base or an extra out

I'm torn about the "27 outs" thing. It's true in principle but sometimes you need to MAKE something happen. Too many times do games turn around on a steal or some bloop or other foolish error, compounded by a hitter coming up after.

Quote:
This is one of those things about baseball that really gets my goat. 
 

Not to resurrect the discussion from pages back, but the 100 pitch limit, among others, gets mine.

I see the garage, but I don't saw the garage. You are speaking incorrectly. You are moidering the king's English! Et cetera! See, saw, see...
     -Curly Howard, "Dizzy Pilots"

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#785
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i'm not totally clear on what defensive indfference is... if it's a 1-0 game and the runner happens to catch the pitcher napping, runs on first movement, and the catcher eats it because he knows he has no chance, is that DI?  yesterday, with a 3-0 score, it's still a pretty close game. 
i can understand if it's 8-0, i'd rather a base runner not pad his stats. 

looks like the Jays are keeping Halladay.  which means they're probably not going to trade him in the offseason because that would be a PR disaster (attendance was down even WITH their hot start this year).  so if he is traded it'll be midseason next year if the Jays are out of it by then.  i don't even know if Richardi will be around then.  the local media is pretty much 50/50 on his job security. 


"now, if that's a fact, tell me... am i lying?"

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#786
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From wikitionary: "An official scoring judgement in which a runner is not credited with a stolen base because the team playing the field did not try to stop the steal. This typically occurs late in a game when the fielding team is winning."

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/defensive_indifference

I agree, 3-0 is not a wise time/score to be slacking off on defense.

I see the garage, but I don't saw the garage. You are speaking incorrectly. You are moidering the king's English! Et cetera! See, saw, see...
     -Curly Howard, "Dizzy Pilots"

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#787
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Eric: 

Teams would not practice defensive indifference in your example because it was just a 1-0 game.  If the runner gets into scoring position, there is too great of a chance he will score and the game will be tied.  It's generally only used when there is a greater-than-one-run lead.  And every stinking announcer says the same thing.  THAT run doesn't mean anything...it's the guy at the plate they are concentrating on (in a game where there's a two run lead).  And, even then, they would probably only exercise DI with two outs...figuring they will get the out at first base. 

It really seems like it's becoming de rigueur in baseball to do this now.  And I just don't understand it. 

There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

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#788
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i see what you're saying, but i guess it falls on the official scorer's subjective opinion as to if the team IS trying to hold the runner vs whether the team SHOULD try to hold the runner.  if it was a 2-0 score and the team was indifferent (hey it could happen, some closers just can't/don't hold runners), it's still not a stolen base even though it's a tight game?  

another thing that need fixing: "quality" start is 6 IP / 3 ER?  maybe make it 7 IP.  



"now, if that's a fact, tell me... am i lying?"

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#789
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With the level of run support he's getting, I'm surprised Zack Greinke hasn't gone on a blow up spree of beating up his teammates.

And at this point, I'm not sure that isn't a bad policy to adopt.
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#790
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Mike,

I agree with you regarding defensive indifference.  For my own part, I think there ought not to be defensive indifference in any circumstances.

"I cannot imagine Earl Weaver ever would have even considered something as asinine as 'defensive indifference.'"

Weaver would have a field day with this.  I can't imagine him even in the same game today.
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#791
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i can't believe they still have bullpens nowadays along the foul lines of the diamond.  aren't teams worried about players twisting ankles on shallow pop-ups in foul territory? 

it makes as much sense as Old Yankee stadium having those monuments in fair territory in the outfield cf fence in the old days.

Quote:
With the level of run support he's getting, I'm surprised Zack Greinke hasn't gone on a blow up spree of beating up his teammates.
i wonder if they've ever made a sabermetric study on run support, or if it's totally random.  i mean taking into consideration that aces face other staff's aces, etc.



Edited by EricW - 7/30/2009 at 04:11 am GMT


"now, if that's a fact, tell me... am i lying?"

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#792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricW View Post

i see what you're saying, but i guess it falls on the official scorer's subjective opinion as to if the team IS trying to hold the runner vs whether the team SHOULD try to hold the runner.  if it was a 2-0 score and the team was indifferent (hey it could happen, some closers just can't/don't hold runners), it's still not a stolen base even though it's a tight game? 
 

It's pretty obvious, Eric--when it happens.  The first basemen might play off the bag, the catcher doesn't even act like he might throw down.  The middle infielders don't even break for the bag.   I've even seen a player take third base under the same circumstances. 

I'd be curious if anyone reading this thread feels differently than me...because I'd love to hear an argument over why it might be considered a good idea.  It MUST BE...since major league teams are doing it more and more often.  


There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

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#793
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Quote:
I'd be curious if anyone reading this thread feels differently than me...because I'd love to hear an argument over why it might be considered a good idea.  It MUST BE...since major league teams are doing it more and more often.  

i think it's just that they don't want guys getting "cheap" stolen bases.  is the ID "stolen base" stat accessible?  i'd be curious to see the numbers.

... anyways, with regards to run support, at espn.com, it does look like guys with lower ERAs get less run support (ace vs ace argument), but that doesn't show the whole picture... i mean, if Sabathia is facing Beckett, is he going to get less run support than if Aceves is facing Beckett? (the argument being, the offense is worried about Aceves' pitching so they try harder for runs).


"now, if that's a fact, tell me... am i lying?"

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#794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricW View Post



i think it's just that they don't want guys getting "cheap" stolen bases.  is the ID "stolen base" stat accessible?  i'd be curious to see the numbers.
 
It's not so much the scoring end of things that disturbs me (that's just the paperwork end of it.  The "validation," if you will of the actual event.)  It's that the players and managers are actually giving away free bases and potentially allowing the other team extra outs--on purpose.

There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

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#795
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Mike, I agree with you, but I wonder if your Little League example is the reason why. I can't think of much else that could motivate that kind of play. Maybe it is just the next evolution of the laziness that has (IMO) infected the game. Yankees 3 1/2 up now!  It's going to be an exciting run for the finish.

I see the garage, but I don't saw the garage. You are speaking incorrectly. You are moidering the king's English! Et cetera! See, saw, see...
     -Curly Howard, "Dizzy Pilots"

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#796
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Moroughan View Post

Maybe it is just the next evolution of the laziness that has (IMO) infected the game.

THAT'S what I'm worried about.  The fact that it is becoming so commonplace and yet so diametrically opposed to everything that competition is about. 

There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

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#797
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I'm really confused.  If the runner doesn't get credit for a stolen base, shouldn't the defending team get charged with an error?

Feline videophiles Susie and Dukie.

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#798
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In my mind, yes.  An error in judgment, certainly. 

=================

For the record, I don't even like the play when a team is leading 8-0 and allows a runner to first in the 9th. 

There has always been talk of "unwritten rules" that you stop stealing bases with a certain lead and possibly adjust other behaviors (never hitting, however).  That's a different discussion on a different subject.   



There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

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#799
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Nicholls View Post

I'm really confused.  If the runner doesn't get credit for a stolen base, shouldn't the defending team get charged with an error?

Gee, reading this thread finally got me to actually look up some of the rules governing what is a certain play or not. To the point: "In baseball statistics, an error is the act, in the judgment of the official scorer, of a fielder misplaying a ball in a manner that allows a batter or baserunner to reach one or more additional bases, when such an advance should have been prevented given ordinary effort by the fielder."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_(baseball)

On first glance you'd think no, since there is no "misplay" in defensive indifference. Then again the last part about prevention by the fielder, maybe it is. Have we run the thread off the rails here? LOL

I see the garage, but I don't saw the garage. You are speaking incorrectly. You are moidering the king's English! Et cetera! See, saw, see...
     -Curly Howard, "Dizzy Pilots"

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#800
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Let me put it back on the rails again--although it never jumped the track as far as I'm concerned....

Big Papi makes the list, says the NYT...

And, again (Boston Globe).


There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

Top Ten Ways to Find Good Deals on DVDs and Blu-ray...
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#801
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Wow, Big Papi eh? Reading his quote about testing, he sounds like the others who talk up testing and then juice anyway. They should just divulge the names now, instead of a leak every few months, at that rate we'll know all by mid-century!

I see the garage, but I don't saw the garage. You are speaking incorrectly. You are moidering the king's English! Et cetera! See, saw, see...
     -Curly Howard, "Dizzy Pilots"

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#802
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Dudes,

The main reason for "defensive indifference" is that it takes into account the positioning and base covering responsibilities of the infielders.  Not having to hold on a runner allows the 1st baseman to position himself more effectively with respect to the batters' tendencies.  The same holds true with the 2nd baseman and shortstop regarding responsibilities for covering throws from the catcher.

Now, I'm not saying that this strategy should be employed as much as it is, but if my manager never takes into consideration what the score is, I'm firing him yesterday.

The Green Bay Packers
12-Time National Football League Champions: 1929, 1930, 1931, 1936, 1939, 1944, 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967, & 1996

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#803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Moroughan View Post

Wow, Big Papi eh? Reading his quote about testing, he sounds like the others who talk up testing and then juice anyway. They should just divulge the names now, instead of a leak every few months, at that rate we'll know all by mid-century!

How did the Mitchell report ever miss that?

Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to have the partial owner of a team run the investigation after all....
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#804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon View Post

Let me put it back on the rails again--although it never jumped the track as far as I'm concerned....

Big Papi makes the list, says the NYT...

And, again (Boston Globe).

 

Let's be honest, there isn't a ML team during that era that didn't have players doing these drugs.  It's time to stop playing games with leaking certain names every few months and release them all for all to see.  As baseball fans we need to get that era of baseball behind us and move forward as they try to clean up the sport.  It happened and there is cupability on all sides including every single team, the sports media and even baseball fans that ignore what was happening back then. 

Another thing, any of those high and mighty HOF players that scream bloody murder about those players taking these drugs need to get off of their high horse too.  If those drugs were available for them to take back when they played, I'm willing to bet my last dollar that many of them would've taken those drugs too.  Just like they took those amp. like they were candy back in the 1950s up until those drugs were banned a couple of years ago.  I'll never underestimate the desire of athletes to get better and make more money in their sports.
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#805
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Agreed 100%.

I can't see anyone being shocked by the Ortiz news, or any name that gets dropped as being on "the list."

There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

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#806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford View Post

Another thing, any of those high and mighty HOF players that scream bloody murder about those players taking these drugs need to get off of their high horse too.  If those drugs were available for them to take back when they played, I'm willing to bet my last dollar that many of them would've taken those drugs too.  Just like they took those amp. like they were candy back in the 1950s up until those drugs were banned a couple of years ago.  I'll never underestimate the desire of athletes to get better and make more money in their sports.
 
I could not agree with you more.
 I had written a long commentary concerning the Aaron commend that is pretty much mirrors your statement. I added that perhaps we should remove the players who used amps but then we definitely would have to remove Mays and probably Aaron himself.
 As for all the names being released, I’m not so certain I’m for it. The tests were supposed to be anonymous and yet all these names are coming out. As much as has the drugs bother me I ‘m just as bothered by the lack of integrity that is being demonstrated by the leaks. Isn’t it true that the leaks are the result of some unethical behavior of a government official? If so the official should lose his job and legal action should be taken if possible.


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#807
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I too agree that this list ought to be released. Did anyone see Ozzie Guillen's remarks following the Ortiz announcement?

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/07/ozzie-guillen-calls-for-list-of-104-players-who-tested-positive-in-2003-to-be-released.html

****************

Well, the BoSox are looking for a three-way deal at the moment. I also didn't know that they had made any overtures for Halladay. I thought that that was just speculation and/or rumors.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4368061

Tonight, the Red Sox play the Orioles. They have Smoltz on the mound. What this means is that the Orioles will have four or five runs by the end of their half of the third inning, and that the Sox will probably have to score at least six or seven runs to win the game. I do hope that we can get our middle relievers in around the fifth inning.
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#808
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 I'm not shocked by this but it does make me a bit sad.   I'm sure there's been cheating in sports for ages but it's so prevalent now that it's becoming hard to root for a team or player without wondering whether they are cheating.

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#809
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Some host on the radio once asked how people could still follow baseball, after all the stuff with steroids, and I would hear one of the callers use the analogy of singers who are on drugs and still make good music, and how we still would listen to them. I thought that was interesting to hear.
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#810
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It IS an interesting topic, Walter. 

What will we tolerate from our athletes, singers, actors, celebrities?

I think that's at the base of the Pete Rose issue.  "Great hitter, but gambled.  If only he was repentant."  We tend to personalize these things and compare them to our own experiences. 

I know I've reacted differently when I've heard that celebrity x has a drug problem, celebrity y has been charged with a crime, and celebrity z has politics diametrically opposed to mine. 

I think the steroids issue is going to become easier for people to accept and deal with once the whole scope of it comes into focus for them.  Once it's not JUST Barry Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, A-Rod, Ortiz, etc. I think people will be able to get past the "personal" issues and understand that it was every team, majors & minors and LOTS of players. 



There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

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