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re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!
Technically the world ISN'T round anyway. It's an oblate spheroid. But I see what you mean. I don't see the point in this practice anymore.
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re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!
I watched Thunderball last night. The credits thing was annoying (unnecessary--unless (and I very much doubt it) those specific moments are not available in a proper form like the rest of the film) though it did not ruin the entire experience. However, if "overscan" is the reason, then there are some displays with SERIOUS overscan issues. Even if some of the edges of the image get cropped, the actual text is far enough away from the edges to be in little danger of being lost to overscanning. I can turn it on or off with my PJ, and I should have thought to check last night, but the next time I give this a whirl (and it'll be relatively soon--I'd forgotten how nice the "Bond girls" were in this one, it's been over 15 years since I last watched it), I will enable overscan to see what happens.
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re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!
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Originally Posted by Paul_Warren
Its obviously very wrong to do this but I can guess why they did it:
1: The majority of BD buyers will have a 16:9 HDTV.
2: The majority of those will use some form of digital zoom to make the 2:35 framing fill their 16:9 HDTV.
3: If you view those titles when they are zoomed to fill a 16:9 HDTV even with overscan tolerances I can guess they fill the screen still.
I know several people who complain if the material does not fill their beloved 16:9 HDTV some even zoom 4:3 material and are happy with it!!! Some zoom 2:35 even if it cuts off vital PQ info I have tried to educate them but they are happy to lose PQ to have a full screen image which is inferior as the digital zoom obviously removes PQ detail.
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This makes more sense to me as a reason than mere "overscan" protection. I know several people who have NEVER accepted "black bars" and always went with "full screen" SD DVD back in the day and employ their zoom function with reckless abandon.
I used to try to "educate" people I saw doing this but, in the end, it was too much effort for too little reward (not to mention some people got testy about it and thought me "snobbish" and "elitest"). If someone is getting into HT and comes to me for advice, I show them stuff on my gear (not top of the line, but adequate enough to illustrate the advantages of doing it correctly) and I've been successful with some on that score. However, if they're already set in their ways, I don't bother anymore.
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re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!
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Originally Posted by Paul_Warren
I know several people who complain if the material does not fill their beloved 16:9 HDTV some even zoom 4:3 material and are happy with it!!! Some zoom 2:35 even if it cuts off vital PQ info I have tried to educate them but they are happy to lose PQ to have a full screen image which is inferior as the digital zoom obviously removes PQ detail.
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It does seem slightly wrong, though, that classic movies which are being released in a so-called "definitive" presentation are catering to the lowest common demoninator of movie watchers.
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1. Original aspect ratio
2. Natural film grain
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re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!
I thought the credits were always put in the 'overscan safe zone', so to speak. Or is that something of recent years? That wouldn't explain the windowboxing on The World Is Not Enough, though.
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re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!
They've got to be using old masters -- cleaning them up maybe, but not going back to the celluloid. There's no way they'd make these mistakes today if they were making fresh transfers from celluloid.
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ATimson
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re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!
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Originally Posted by EnricoE
for anyone who assumes that mgm/ua didn't fuck things up as the titles where created that way should look closer into the special features. their you'll find the opening credit video without text and without any distortion from the windowboxing.
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That just shows that the windowboxing happened between when the titles were shot and when the discs were produced. The unsqueezed textless version isn't proof that the squeezing didn't exist in some/all of the release prints.
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Stephen Brooks
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re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!
Could someone please explain this whole overscan thing? I got my first 16x9 TV about a year ago, and I'm sure it has overscan because 1.78:1, 1.66:1, and 1.85:1 titles all fill the screen completely. But the image doesn't appear cropped or distorted in any way.
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re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!
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Originally Posted by ATimson
... isn't proof that the squeezing didn't exist in some/all of the release prints.
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Even if some prints have the distorted image, that could have been corrected during the scanning of the film. I.e., make a higher-than-high-res scan of the distorted opening credit sequence (if there's no pristine, undistorted opening credit sequence to be found), and then stretch it horizontally until it is perfect again -- 5% or whatever is needed. (Or until the round globe is round instead of oval!).
I've got to believe that they must have saved the original, pristine-quality opening credit sequences somewhere. They invested so much time in them. To think some of them may only exist in bastardized form is sad.
Bond without perfect opening credit sequences is like ...like Benny Hill without perfect sequences of the Hills Angels.
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re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!
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Originally Posted by Stephen Brooks
Could someone please explain this whole overscan thing? I got my first 16x9 TV about a year ago, and I'm sure it has overscan because 1.78:1, 1.66:1, and 1.85:1 titles all fill the screen completely. But the image doesn't appear cropped or distorted in any way.
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Overscan doesn't add distortion to a picture, you just miss some bits of the image. How much you miss depends on the television. If you have an LCD or a Plasma screen, there's a chance you can turn it off in the television menu. Apparently the Bond titles here are squeezed a little, so that all the credits can be seen. That adds the distortion.
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Douglas Monce
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re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!
Apparently Maurice Binder had a tendency to put credits well outside the title safe area of the frame. It has been reported here that some theaters had problems keeping the titles on the screen when Thunderball first ran in 1965. The windowboxing on that title at least seems to be on the print as a method of fixing that problem for theaters.
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Douglas Monce
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re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!
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Originally Posted by Stephen PI
That could have been my post you were describing. I ran the film in January 1966 and we had to do some adjustments to the screen masking, the aperture/mask projector plates were okay, to prevent some titles that were overlapping the edge of the screen.
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I believe it was your post that I'm thinking of.
Doug
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Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!
Quote:
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The mind will actually correct much of this, it's true. If you sit in a movie theatre on the far left or far right, pretty quickly you'll see things as normal even though if you snapped a pic of it everyone would be tall and narrow.
I think we can agree that these distorted opening sequences are "acceptable" -- but they aren't "good".
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Re: MGM/UA Did it again: Windowboxing on opening credits of Moonraker!!!
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Originally Posted by Gary Seven
If the globe in WINE is distorted by being "squeezed", why are they so many other perfectly round objects in the graphics throughout the sequence? Would they not also be more oval or squeezed? If the opening sequence is indeed squeezed, it seems that it would apply to all graphical objects and that was indeed NOT the case. I paid careful attention to that fact. So I question the validity of these claims.
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It would be very interesting to get some kind of official response to this. If this genuinely was how the titles were shown in theatres (I honestly can't remember back 10 years!) it would be a fascinating insight to find out how, why, etc.
Respect and preserve the film-makers' intentions:
1. Original aspect ratio
2. Natural film grain
3. Original theatrical captions/subtitles
