What can we do about Warner Bros?

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

Except for the people who will get no sound at all right off, because their blu-ray player doesn't support converting TrueHD to output via the toslink.

Doug

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

The audio tracks are going to be listed in the audio setup, so despite not having the original packaging, the audio track information is available.

- Walter.

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

A good point. I know which I would consider a bigger annoyance.

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Not only that but they would be getting calls from angry customers who have no sound....or hundreds of discs being returned to the stores because they are "defective".

Doug

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

Yes, but which players do that? I know of none.

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

I started out with the BDP1000 and I don't believe that it did, but my memory could be off on that.

Doug

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

But why would your average movie watcher even GO to the audio setup after the movie has started?

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

All other studios default to highest codec, why can't Warner?

That is the standard.

No other factor comes into play.

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

Actually its not the standard according to the blu-ray spec.

Doug

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

And specs always subject to change, in most cases to customer demand.

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

And that tends to leave some customers out in the cold.

Doug

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

And is SONY leaving all their customers in the cold with the only track being TRUEHD?

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

Apparently.

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

With Sony and Paramount I believe it is set up so that there are two English audio tracks: TrueHD and legacy Dolby Digital. The regular Dolby track is hidden and the disc defaults to TrueHD. If the system doesn't support TrueHD the disc switches to DD automatically without requiring any input from the user. So no matter what your particular system's capabilities are, you automatically get the best option.

I don't know why Warner doesn't do the same. It is a little irksome but if it doesn't get fixed, whatever. I've got bigger fish to fry.

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

Any response to that?

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

I just tried a Warner title on the Samsung 1000 with component cables for video/stereo 2.0 cables for audio hooked directly to the TV Monitor at 720p. Both the DD 5.1 and DD TrueHD 5.1 audio could be heard with perfect clarity with the TV's 2.0 speakers.

It's likely that one of the many firmware updates fixed the problem for the first gen Profile 1.0 players, and now with Profile 1.1 being the standard the spec has been brought up to speed. I mean, there's got to be a reason Sony, of all studios, is able to release dozens of titles without a separate regular DD 5.1 track.

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

If that is the case then that is the best possible solution, but I don't know that it is, or what is involved in making it work. It may require authoring in advanced mode which would cause the complaint that the disc doesn't resume.

Doug

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

THIS is what I've been trying to say. Thank you!

Warner does the same. That's what I called the "Core" audio earlier in this thread. And it's my point: they're inclusion of a separate regular DD track is redundant.

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

The only thing i REALLY know, is, i own more Warner Blu-ray's than any other studio. I almost own more Warner Blu-rays, than all the others combined!
Catalog titles with no extras...fine! 2010, or Under Siege are only gonna set you back $14 in store, on release! But Predator was $28 in store when it came out, and thats one of those high price FOX discs...and its a bare bones release too!

I have no problem with Warner Blu-ray discs. Except i hate gimmick packaging. How the West Was Won, Dirty Harry, and the DH boxset could have come out in Blu-ray cases, and my OCD would be happy!

I cant say anything about HD audio, i dont have that capacity, but i DO like Warner movies starting right up. I love it as a matter of fact. What a joy to not to have to sit and watch 10 minutes of FBI warnings, anti-pirating announcements, and so on...right to the movie. I dont mind previews, i watch most. But its nice to look at after the movie.

And the most important thing to me, PQ. I think Warner does fine in that regard. Many other studios fall below them. I would put them in the top 50% in picture quality.

Thanks Warner, i love what you do. Keep up the good work!

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

Could very well be that it was fixed with a firmware update. I did seem to remember having to select the DD track when I had that player.

Doug

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

Bring on the default TrueHD.

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Yes I own more Warner blu-rays that all other studios combined. Of course that may have something to do with their consistent release of classics, and the fact that their classic library is much larger than just about any other studio.

Doug

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

It's also what I was saying: two separate tracks.

And this appears to be where we parted company. I don't believe Warner does include an additional regular DD track. Rather, instead of hiding the legacy DD track, they list it as a separate, user-selectable option on the menu.

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

Gotcha. I see how we were misinterpreting each other.


No, fact is they do both - a fully separate track, and a hidden legacy track within the TrueHD. Hence the dropout issue on Led Zeppelin only occurring if one was getting the full lossless TrueHD audio and not the core/legacy track of the TrueHD audio.

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

Because I shouldnt have to

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

I don't have the "Led Zeppelin" disc, but just from your description, I don't see how that proves the existence of an additional track. Still, we've gotten enough cleared up that I think this can be left alone.

For future reference, confusion can be avoided by not referring to the legacy track as being "within" the TrueHD or a "core". TrueHD is based on Meridian Lossless Packing, while DD is based on AC3. They're separate codecs and create separate digital streams. It's possible to have a TrueHD track with no legacy DD, as was the case on HD DVD, where no legacy track was needed, because every player was required to have the ability to play TrueHD in some form. The hidden legacy track is strictly a Blu-ray issue.

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

There are only two tracks present: one TrueHD and a complementary Dolby Digital track for backward-compatibility. If the TrueHD track can't be processed by a player, the second track is used instead and the TrueHD bypassed entirely.

There is no 'core' legacy Dolby Digital track that can be extracted from 'within' a TrueHD stream. The technologies used by these two formats are fundamentally different and incompatible.

TrueHD doesn't use legacy lossy audio as a foundation (i.e. core plus extension) the way DTS-HD and Dolby Digital Plus do/can. There is simply nothing to extract. If a TrueHD track can't be processed by a player, it is ignored. The separate legacy track(s) that can be processed is/are used instead (PCM, DTS or, in most cases, Dolby Digital). The TrueHD track plays no part at all.

The lack of a legacy core to extract, together with the point made by Michael earlier that TrueHD compatibility isn't mandated in the Blu-ray spec while Dolby Digital is (among others), is why Warner (and others) include a completely separate Dolby Digital track on their discs. How or whether this track is accessed is up to the studio. Warner allows the track to be selected directly via the menu system. Sony instead hides the track and uses logic within the player to play it when required. Both methods still use same two separate soundtracks, however.

If Warner (or Sony etc.) really wanted to, they could include a TrueHD and a DTS-HD track together; or a TrueHD and a PCM soundtrack, or any combination that included a TrueHD soundtrack and a second soundtrack that could be processed by all Blu-ray players (Dolby Digital, DTS or PCM: the formats players are mandated to support) for compliance. They choose to use Dolby Digital because it offers the greatest compatibility for users with legacy equipment.

The processes used by TrueHD (and Dolby Digital Plus) are explained in more detail in Dolby's TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus White Paper.

Adam

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

Sorry for all the confusion. I've never been one for tech detail, so I only go with what lingo I know. Sony's internal lingo for the AC3 track that is accessed when a player can't read the TrueHD MLP is "core". That's why I started by using that term. When Casey used the term "legacy" I ran with that because that seemed to be the lingo that got the idea across to everyone.

Correct terminology aside (which you both just outlined), Warner titles are currently authored with:

Audio Track 1 being a regular DD 5.1 AC3.
Audio Track 2 being a MLP 5.1.

Now, whether it's AC3, MLP, ABC, 123, or E=mc2, the whole reason I brought this up is that they could save themselves from complaint #1 in this thread by making only the on-the-surface visible English audio, accessed via the single Audio Track 1, the TrueHD track, which then automatically accesses the AC3 track when a consumer can't play MLP.

On a current Warner release, if one plays the MLP Audio Track 2, their discs are already set up to play back the AC3 while staying on Audio Track 2. Now, whether Warner is putting the AC3 track on there once or twice I really don't care. But they should save themselves the trouble with having the menu option for the AC3 DD track. So that, like Sony's current releases, all parties are happy, and no one has to bother "choosing" between Audio Track 1 and Audio Track 2, because they are both perceived as Audio Track 1 by the consumer via the player display; then those with lossless ability will get it, while those without won't, all without knowing the difference.

I think that (finally) will make sense to everyone. In the end, we just went the long way around for me to essentially say "Warner should do it like Sony is doing it."

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

Never thought I'd ever hear or read these words.

Re: What can we do about Warner Bros?

LOL. Things have indeed changed in some respects over the last couple years.