A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

In addition to still directing films and the occasional "C.S.I.", Friedkin is a renown stage director who travels all over the world directing operas. That keeps him pretty busy.

Do people make the same criticism of ANY other director (or cinematographer) who is involved in the transfer of their films to dvd or blu-ray. No. It's only a negative and a put-down when it comes to Friedkin. "Gee, if only he was working..." Go to an opera sometime and you'll see his current work.


Exactly which B&W directors are on record as saying that? Or is it only a "faux" supposition that has no basis in the reality of what's being done in the transfer of B&W films today?


You even have to ask why he has so much control over his films? Again, I don't think I've ever heard that asked of any other director.

Personally, there are things I hate in the Exorcist Redux. While I love the additional doctor scenes and the alternate ending, the spiderwalk and the extra superimpositions take me right out of the film and IMO need to go.

However, it's his film and if that's what makes it to blu-ray, I'll either breakdown and buy it, or just be happy with my original version dvd. Either way, it's his work to put out in the manner he wants, not mine.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

I can't recall too many other directors with three films that feature the color changed. Scorsese is a favorite of mine but if he decides to make TAXI DRIVER look clean and fresh then yes, I'd be throwing a major fit about it. I'm sure others have taken some heat including the recent Criterion/changing aspect ratio debate.


I didn't say anyone was doing it. I did say old Ray prefers the colorized version of those films but thankfully the B&W were released as well.


Not many directors, especially someone who hasn't had a hit in 30+ years, can walk into a major studio and tell them that they want to change the color of one of their films or add sound effects. Perhaps I'm wrong but if any studio would allow any director to do this then thankfully not all directors are as nutty as Friedkin.


There's some truth to this and I would agree with you if both versions are out there to see. With TFC, its look always had so much to do with the mood, feeling and atmosphere and I just fear some of that will be gone with the new picture. Perhaps I should hold my tongue until I view the disc but I wasn't too thrilled with the CRUISING disc. Griffith and Chaplin were known to edit their films years after the original release but very few people enjoy those cuts.

Going back to your F13 example, I know very few people who want a MPAA-edited edition no matter what the movie is. I guess you have a point about the theatrical version being included but most people will go for the unrated one and I'd guess that's why Paramount isn't going to have both versions. It's either SAW 1 or 2 that features a five second difference in the cuts so once again, most would pick the unrated. EYES WIDE SHUT is another that I doubt people want in its theatrical version.

We could break them down film by film because I enjoy the 1930 cut of THE LOST WORLD to its 1925 theatrical version. Again, it's up to the viewer but I would hope in this day and age we could either get both versions or the one I want, which is how the studio is going to get my money.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

IF the director negotiated his contract carefully, he (and his estate) will retain rights over his creation. That is something I fully support, even at the cost of getting what "I" want. Art should remain within the province of the creator as much as possible. Would I prefer to have the theatrical release along with whatever different version becomes available? Of course--but I am not willing to impose my "rights" as a consumer to be satisfied over the rights of the creator. I have NO such rights. I only have the right to decide to whether or not I will rent, buy, watch the "new" version in question, along with the right to express my discontent (where applicable).

Since I've only ever seen The French Connection on TV (and it's been at least 20 years), I doubt I'll be disappointed with this release. But that is just me. I don't expect that everyone will be happy with this release, nor should I. But if I am disappointed, and the disappointment rests on the modifications Friedkin has brought to the film, so be it. I will still defend his right to do with his creations as he wishes.

I think the best approach to filmmakers who want to modify their releases and NOT make the "original" available is to express (either in fora like this, or letters to the director via his agent or whatever) a POSITIVE desire for the original. Calling the director an "idiot" for modifying his own creation may well be within one's right, but it is hardly productive.

All that said, anyone who feels strongly enough about not having access to the original should indeed withhold purchase out of principle. No one should be criticized or insulted for that decision anymore than those who choose to accept the "new" version.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Paul,

I feel that criticism is fine but insults are indeed counterproductive for the most part.

I wonder what the public would say if Da Vinci's heirs decided they wanted to change the color of Mona Lisa's dress. Well, they can't since the French government owns the painting but you get my drift.

Or how about Ansel Adam's heirs deciding to colorize some of his prints (sacrilege).

Here's a movie that won 5 Oscars and was nominated for 3 others as originally made. Why not leave well enough alone - or at least include the original as an extra. I've seen a few movies that did not benefit, imo, from later director manipulation:

Payback
Exorcist
French Connection
Blood Simple
Star Wars

to name a few.

Brad

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Yet, we're not talking about heirs, but the director, who's vision is the film.

By the way, I like the updated version of The Exorcist, but I would prefer they include both versions with the upcoming BR release.






Crawdaddy

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Outrage would ensue, no doubt. However, if da Vinci himself wanted to change it--so be it (and famous artists, as I learned during a recent trip to Rome, frequently "updated" their works--much more so than we would think likely).

They are not the creators, so I would not be very sympathetic to the idea (regardless of what I would think of the result). However, again, if Adams proposed it himself, I would be disappointed, but I would support his right to do so.

The only one I've seen in an altered form of the above is Star Wars and I was not happy with the changes ("Hans shoots first" makes a lot more sense for his character development) but Lucas has the right to do what he wishes with his creation. He is NOT obliged to provide multiple versions (I can live with the bareboned nod he made with the DVD set a while back), nor is any other creator--no matter what I (or any other member of the audience) may think or feel about it. We have NO "rights" in the matter of satisfaction. We have the right to not spend money on the altered product and express our disappointment over it, but that's a separate issue.

This issue arose with the BD release of The Dark Knight. People wanted a fixed AR version on BD and the director did NOT want to make that available. I understand people's frustration with his choice, but it is his choice to make. It's the same with any and all other releases where the creator retains his rights over the creation. I can cite a musical example. Genesis has recently re-released all of its studio albums (save the very first one over which they no longer hold the rights) and they have new MCH mixes (not the only ones to have done this, of course) and new 2 channel mixes. I have the original mixes and the new ones, while not radically different, are, nevertheless, quite noticeable to serious fans. The band has announced that once existing stocks of the original mixes are no longer available, the new mixes will be the only ones on the market. I already have the originals, so it doesn't much matter to me--but it could be an issue for others (and, going forward, in whatever new formats emerge, the old ones will not be available--just like the "old" versions of films, in some cases). It is their right.

I've been sometimes accused of wanting to stifle dissent (rarely here, but here and elsewhere) by making the "right of the creator" argument. That is not all the case. People have every right to complain about creator decisions. They simply don't have the right to be satisfied with the creator's decisions.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Not my intention or thoughts. Yes, I agree that the creator has the right to change things. My only right is to not buy it if I don't like it. Here's where, I think, some folks take umbrage with some directors changing things around. If the feelings are strong enough some name calling is likely to ensue pointed straight at the director.Brad

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Has anyone opined otherwise? I've seen (and more than once taken part in) lots of bitching and moaning about directors or studios releasing altered versions of films on Blu-ray and DVD without the original version, but I don't think I've seen anyone say that they don't have the right to do so. I'm not even sure how one would formulate a cogent argument for that position. Are you saying that some people believe that it should be illlegal to release a film on Blu-ray or DVD without the original version? If so, I agree with you that it's quite absurd.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

I recently listened to an interview with Terry Gilliam. Upon being asked how he felt about his old films, he said that when he watched them he was often left surprised, wondering who had actually made them, because the Terry Gilliam he was then isn't the same person as the Terry Gilliam he is now.

I thought that was kind of interesting. In a way you could argue that The French Connection was directed by Friedkin 1971, not Friedkin 2008, and thus it is not obvious that editing the film to his heart's content 35+ years later should be accepted without question.

Regardless, I think not including the original version is dumb. It's just sad that there isn't anything more you can do than voting with your wallet.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

I'm not sure that Payback falls into this category because the original release was taken away from the director, and additional scene were directed by someone else. The director's cut is what Helgeland had intended in the first place.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

No one has said it should be illegal, but more than one person has made claims to the effect that because they are "fans" they are "owed" a version to which they feel attached--the creator's desires be damned. They are free to lament the lack of whatever version they pine for, but they are not "owed" anything (unless the packaging and ad campaigns promise one thing and deliver quite another--but that would very likely NOT be the fault of the creator in any case). And I've encountered some who have argued the creators do not have the right to withhold an original as it belongs to "the public" (a strange interpretation of "public ownership" in a society with copyright laws, but hey, what can one do?).

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Very, very few people are actually out there claiming any kind of ownership over a movie. Everyone else merely wants the most for their money or would like the same choices that exist for one movie to exist for any other. (nobody is trying to take away an artist's rights, I promise)

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Upon viewing this disc, I feel compelled to echo Roizman's sentiments; Friedkin's revision of The French Connection looks terrible, even ridiculous.

I really have no issue with manipulating the color in a fashion different from its original release if it honestly would have benefitted in some manner. (See David Fincher's re-timed scenes in the Platinum Edition of 'Seven' as such an example). However, this is ultimately a failed experiment. It looks utterly unrealistic - completely out of step with the "documentary" style of the original version. It's unnatural and just plain...strange.

The supplemental feature that walks the viewer through Friedkin's process for achieving the new look for the film explains what he was striving for, but it simply doesn't work. To my eyes, it's not just the reds that bleed, but all the colors seem to bloom in varying degrees. It reminded me of a poorly colorized black-and-white film.

This is, by far, the most disappointing Blu-Ray release I have encountered.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

I'd like to see this, but I just can't bring myself to spend 30 bucks and be disappointed with Friedkin's meddling. Why couldn't he leave well enough alone? What is it with the urge to ruin what has stood in good stead for decades? I'd rent it, but the local shops tend to stock only new releases in Blu.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Paul,

I agree that fans are not literally "owed" anything by the director. However, in a sense, just a sense, are we not owed something since the director lives off of our largess when we pay to see their movies? Without us paying customers, Mr. Friedkin would be at a window asking "fries with that burger?". Although he does not owe us anything I still feel it would be nice to include a copy of the original for those of us who want to remember it as we saw it in the theater - show a little respect and courtesy to the fans. Is that asking too much?

Having watched it a second time, I find it terribly disappointing and in a few spots unwatchable. I'll be dumping the BD and enjoy the dvd instead.

Brad

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

It depends on which philosophy of creator/creation one subscribes to. Some artists (in the broadest sense of the term--writer, filmmaker, painter, composer, etc.) are explicit about their commercial ambitions (and this goes back to at least the Renaissance, not just today) and such artists do care about public reception (and, likely, would give the audience what it wants). Other artists create for themselves and put it out for consumption--on their terms. They are indifferent to what the audience thinks. They hope it will be liked (and thus "successful") but the concerns of the audience are low on their list of priorities. Such artists do it for themselves--any "success" is a bonus (Van Morrison is a great example of that).

I prefer the courtesy shown by many but, ultimately, I think the creator's right to do as he wishes with his creation is of paramount importance and I will defend it, even if it means I will face the occasional disappointment. There have been far too many creators in all artistic fields who've not been able to see their visions realized because of commercial or other interference.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Perhaps he IS concerned about the audience and feels that the film will reach a much larger NEW audience if it is updated with a fresh new look.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

The DVD doesn't have an altered picture but it only has the altered 5.1 track and not the mono that is on the Blu-ray.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

He could very well be. Or he could simply have the attitude that "it's my baby and I'll do what I want with it". Or he could have a completely unknown motivation. Whatever the motive is matters not with regards to creator rights. I was merely pointing out the two dominant strands of thinking regarding "the arts" in the broad sense. There are, of course, nuances in each strand.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

I was waiting for the blu to watch the French Connection, but since it sounds
like that has been botched I decided to take out
my 5 star edition and finally watch this mvie
for the very first time.


I can't believe it myself that i never have watched this movie.
Had the 4 star since it was released but never got around to it.
then the blu was announced so i waited some more.

I do say that the dvd looks pretty terrific upconverted
with the ps3 > hdmi > denon 3808 > mits 73' dlp.

I guess I'll rent the blu someday just to see what it looks like.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

so is there a web site with comparison pics?

after watching the dvd I thought it looked great.
normal grain and no ee that i could see.

dvd beaver seems to only have pics from the blu and they
hardly look different if at all.
on the dvd the last scene in the dripping wet freezing werehouse
the shot looks nearly b&w on the dvd.

Is this shot more colorful on the blu?

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Not really. It's pretty much b&w on the blu-ray.

I don't find the difference that great. A slightly cooler feel to the colors. More detail, except in the blacks, which are now richer and darker. I think the skin tones are far more realistic and natural on the blu-ray.

My only quibble is the bleeding on the Santa suit. Otherwise, I think the blu-ray really is beautiful.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Kind of. Take a look at the row of shots at the bottom here. The second shot is how it should have looked, the fourth one is how it actually looks on the Blu-ray.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Friedkin's meddling is beautiful. The brown pattern in the coat is completely gone. The button on the coat which was a brown tortoiseshell color is now grey. The lapel pin which was red in both the untimed OCN and the DVD is now just dark grey. The turtleneck shirt which was noticeably brown now looks almost black. The red and blue car in the background are almost completely colorless now, and the red band on the ship on the ship is almost as black as the waterproofing paint on the concrete dock.

The lapels of Hackman's coat have almost completely disappeared into the rest of his coat, and the gold buttons now look like pewter. Just bloody awful.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

It's funny how Friedkin thinks the far left shot of the comparison looks too bright. You almost wonder if he has his monitor calibrated correctly .

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

I had to de-lurk to reply to this, as you've mentioned it several times. With 'Zodiac' you're right that it was a brand-new director's cut and the theatrical version didn't end up on anything but the first DVD, but there are mitigating circumstances in all of your other examples.

I may be wrong about 'Se7en,' but as I recall the Platinum Edition DVD, as well as the Criterion laserdisc, weren't a new revision but came from silver retention prints that were indeed shown in theaters (just not everywhere, as it's expensive). This was always something Fincher wanted for the look—and made in 1995—and not an idea he suddenly had years later. It's arguably the original version.

'Sleeping Beauty,' besides the usual cleanup, didn't change anything except showing a part of the frame that hadn't been theatrically exhibited. You could argue that this is as much of a difference as showing it with part of the original image lopped off, but you can see why nobody complained about it, especially when this newly displayed part of the image was fully animated from the start and not "finished" for the Blu-ray or anything.

And the new version of 'Friday the 13th' is not new; it is the original version. Fans of that movie had been quite vocally begging for it to be released this way in the U.S. for years, as the only U.S. releases were censored to obtain an R rating. It should be obvious why there was no uproar about not having both versions on the BD.

But really it's a matter of degree. Whatever you think of the new look of 'The French Connection,' there's no denying it's a drastic change and it affects every frame of the movie, and no denying that it's absolutely not the original version. Under those circumstances it makes sense to at least want a choice of seeing either version on Blu-ray.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

classical painters (renaissance) often go back decades later to touch up on what we consider as "classics" today. i wonder if we were all alive back then with the internet, what we'd say about that . in light of history, the 'final version' artists die with are what we're left with.

heck, back then artists even paint OVER existing paintings COMPLETELY to save $. using X-Ray nowadays u can see what the original painting were vs. current image.

and yet... do you hear scholars of classical art debate vigorously over what is and was and what ifs and so on? maybe some clamoring, but whatever we have today is what the artist died with.

if we take film as true art, then even if the 'painter', in this case the director, repaints his entire picture then it is still his (like lucas). we've got no right to experience it. eventually, we'll all be dead (yes that's reality and this will be but a little footnote in the grand scheme of history, if it is ever preserved.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Friedkin, obviously, had all the right in the world to alter the look of this masterpiece as he saw fit.

I, also obviously, have all the right in the world to decry it as I see fit.

I watched it on a calibrated 50" Viera plasma, and I was mortified. Just terrible. As bad, sometimes even worse, than what I was expecting based on the critical comments of others.

I disagree with the notion that a director's post-theatrical-run alterations of his/her film are de facto "correct" iterations. Some changes are, IMO, stone cold wrong. Terrible. Boneheaded. Bizarre. Silly. Crazy.

It's my opinion; therefore, it's right -- to me. (Just as yours is right to you.) I'm the one watching it. I'm the one that spent his personal money on it. I'm the one that cared enough about it to be a member of its audience.

My own eyes tell me what I believe to be a truth: If this film had the same changes made without them coming from the director, every single person on this film-savvy site would be disgusted by the results. It's that clearly bad. The fact that the horrid results are from the director does not magically make what would otherwise be a terrible, boneheaded change suddenly acceptable.

TFC is one of my favorite films. It is a masterpiece and a heralding of what I have always considered a golden age of cinema: the 70s. I include "The Exorcist" in that same category, and I will absolutely not purchase that Blu-ray if Friedkin applies the same desecration to it that he has applied to TFC.

I regret my purchase.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

"I watched it on a calibrated 50" Viera plasma, and I was mortified. Just terrible. As bad, sometimes even worse, than what I was expecting based on the critical comments of others."

maybe you sould have done a comparision between the two versions,"Terrible"
seems a little too harsh for me.The Original dvd never looked that great
so even if the color is muted in a couple scenes(I am Not Saying I prefer the new version)The original had that grain,the color covered it up in the few
scenes (like the club and outdoor scene that follows).It could only be "Terrible "if the dvd was great,and its far
from great.

Re: A few words about...™ The French Connection -- in Blu-ray

Hi, Peter ~

I own the earlier 5-star SD, and I did do a comparison. Does the Blu look better than the SD? In some ways, certainly. But in other -- and to me more important -- ways, no, it doesn't.

The Blu-ray is not an improvement over the SD if the changes made (what, oddly enough, Friedkin considers to be the "improvement") explicitly alter the image in such a way as to change the look completely. And not, IMO, for the better.

It flat-out took me out of the film. I have standards, but I'm not a super stickler like many here are, so for the alterations made to this film by the director remove me from it -- one of my favorite films -- says a lot to me.

If others watch it and think it's just fine, that's just fine. I don't begrudge them, nor would I criticize them for their position. But Friedkin I do criticize. Strongly and without hesitation.