Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

So I'm about to purchase my first ever HDTV and can't make up my mind between these two sets. I mainly will be using it for movies (dvd/blu-ray) and video games. Here are the pros and cons I see of each, but I'd love to hear more input from you all that'll hopefully push me in one direction. I've looked at both sets at stores. One of the concerns I have living in southern CA is earthquakes and I'm wondering whether a mounted set on a TV stand is more stable compared to the tv just sitting on top of a stand. Money isn't a *huge* issue but the price difference is still pretty significant.

Kuro: Smaller screen size, more than double the cost (seen these mainly for ~$3,700 or so) of the Samsung, higher energy use (though from what I read, this doesn't have a significant impact on your electricity bill), potential issues with burn-in (though again, this seems to be a relative non-issue atleast in terms of permanent burn-in), some of the best black levels on the market, able to be mounted, no picture degradation with off-center viewing angles.

Samsung LED DLP: Larger screen size, much cheaper (seen these for ~$1750 or so), lower energy use, no burn-in worries, not able to be mounted, picture degradation with off-center viewing angles (at most, I would be watching from a 35 or so degree angle for regular tv broadcasts from my computer station and I tried to mimic this at the store - there is definitely some degradation, but only mild), don't have to replace bulbs compared with other DLPs

Thanks in advance

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

As a former plasma owner, I have been going through the scenarios and finally decided what was best for me at this point in my life in terms of viewing habits. You can read about it in this thread:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...-abuse-tv.html

In the end, it's about trade-offs, both in picture quality you can live with, and the amount of money you want to sink into a TV to get to a certain level of picture quality, and peace of mind.

But don't dawdle if you are serious about going the DLP LED route because they will be harder to find as most stores are blowing them out, as well as online stores, too. I hope to score a DLP LED set at Fry's or HHGregg after the Super Bowl.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

I think your decision boils down to which is more important to you:
* Cost / Size (DLP)
* Absolute quality (Pioneer)

Every professional reviewer regards the Pioneer Kuro line as having the best picture today. The 6020 & 5020 plasmas are the second best TVs on the market, trailing only their more expensive Elite brothers. And the reviews note that after professional calibration, there is very little difference in picture quality between the non-elite and the Elite models.

Because of this, I bought the 5020, the 50" Kuro.

What I couldn't learn is just how much better "best" is. How noticeable is it compared to the other excellent TVs, like the Panasonic -800U or a Samsung LCD? Is it worth the price premium? Is is better to have a larger screen over a smaller, but higher quality, image? What if you never calibrate, is the "best" any better than another uncalibrated set?

I think it's essentially impossible to get solid information on these practical TV matters. It's also basically worthless to compare TVs at retail stores, except maybe to gauge off-axis viewing. Looking at an LCD in "torch" mode in a brightly lit BestBuy tells you nothing about how it looks at moderate brightness in your living room at night, with the lights off. People complain about plasmas not being bright enough. And sure enough in the store they pale next to the sun-like LCDs. But in my living room, in my normal viewing conditions, my Kuro was too bright, uncomfortably bright, out of the box.

And there's dollars & cents. I was going to wait another year to buy, and maybe get a "second best" Panasonic, but Pioneer slashed prices making the Kuro affordable. DLPs are value monsters. For the price of the 60" Kuro, you can buy two 67" DLPs and a Blu Ray player!(!!!)

(And I'll ignore matters of TV speaker quality, remote control quality, etc. I assume anyone spending $2000+ on a TV never uses its speakers and has the good sense to use a quality universal remote )

My decision, which doesn't help you, is that the 50" non-elite Kuro is the best buy today. I'm now hopelessly biased against RPTV. A brother in law has a high-end Mitsubishi DLP from 3 years ago, and the image distortion, though small, is obvious to me. I'd had enough distortion after six years with my CRT. But professional reviews, the few you can find in the past year or two, say good things about DLPs; they're not "bad" choices by any means. You'll have a much larger screen that I have for a few hundred less. There's a lot to be said for that.

So pick your criteria: cost / inch or absolute best quality.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

I actually read that thread as the thread title was so amusing. It definitely seems like as you guys have said, a quality vs size/price type of decision, but the thing that has held up the decision is that the people who own that particular LED claim the picture quality matches pretty much anything a LCD/plasma can do. As suggested, it's hard to compare them in the store especially since the stores wouldn't let me watch any blu-ray content on them. The one concerning thing I saw while watching both the 61 and 67" Samsung LED DLP was that where there a sudden screen transition like during a movie, I would see this diffuse distortion that lasted less than a second I guess as the tv was adjusting to the sudden image change. This didn't happen with every screen transition, but it happened a decent frequency and didn't know if this is just a common thing with DLPs in general or whether there was something wrong with those particular DLPs considering they've been floor models for probably atleast a half year.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

hi guys
the Kuro will have much better black levels.
The samsung (once calibrated) will have better color accuracy.
If you go with the Samsung, strongly consider adding a backlight.
I think this is more of a price vs size issue / thread ?

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

I went with a friend today to HH Gregg. My friend bought a new 46" Samsung, series 6, LCD. I asked the salesman if he'd heard that Samsung was going to quit making DLP tvs? He said he hadn't heard that. He said they had just finished building a new plant somewhere (forget where), just for building DLPs. I don't know if he knew what he was talking about.......... I really hope they don't stop.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

Gregg, what are your thoughts on the relative importance of color accuracy vs black level?

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

Not sure if you saw my later posts in that thread, but seems that the cost of operating a big plasma in the NYC area can certainly be high based on my recent findings. If the CNet reviews are correct, a circa 60" plasma would consume ~320W more than a Samsung 61" LED DLP -- and I don't think the 67" runs that much more. Here in the NYC area, I expect Con Ed to charge me an avg of nearly ~$0.23/KWH (including taxes) in 2009 -- and it'll probably just keep going up in the future. At 8 hours per day, that ~320W diff would cost an extra ~$215/year on the electric bill in 2009 (and whatever "green" concerns might go w/ that). Obviously, that cost would change depending on hours of viewing.

At one point, I thought I'd consider a circa-60" plasma at some point, if I don't get an LED DLP soon. But now, I think I better just get the DLP and forget about plasma for the forseeable future due in part to the high power consumption (even when the upfront price tag comes down) -- the degree of PQ advantages just don't seem worth it to me at least given my set of requirements.

_Man_

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

depends on the viewing environment.

Black level is much more important if viewing in a totally dark room, if that will not occur then it is of very little importance.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

Some professional reviewers actually use the Kuro Elite as part of their test set-up. Imagine having a "reference" display in your home.

Hands down...if you want the best in picture quality both in black levels, depth, color, shadow detail etc. etc. the list is endless then you only have one choice...Pioneer Kuro Elite.

Remember..."garbage in garbage out". Your source will dictate what you see in the end result. So if you don't have high quality source material then save the money.

Best of luck to you.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

LOL

"Refrence Display" that's good stuff! If you want a reference display, it should be a DLP front projector (a commercial grade one, at that) if we are after "refrence" then you should use what the real theaters use, right?

Sorry I just always get a kick out of the term reference.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

Hey, no problem Brett...thanks for your insightful and valuable contribution. I am always glad to read quality posts that add real value to the discussion and don't, in any way, attack any one for their contribution.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

Trem,

I appreciate your response. I am always glad to voice my opinion in a non confrontational manner and do so without naming anyone in a post.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

I'm a sucker for a good plasma *drool* but i have to say in your situation just go for the DLP. You'll be much happier with the larger size and less power consumption.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

I don't follow front projection. Do consumer DLPs exceed the best consumer direct-view displays?

My guess would be that they couldn't match the best black levels, since RPTV DLP can't and FP DLP is the same technology. I'd guess DLP could provide excellent color accuracy with a 3-chip design. But this is (un)educated guessing

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

With projection tech, the darker the room the blacker the blacks. Black levels in any DLP technology come from turning the light "off" and using the resulting darkness to make black.

My point above was about the term Reference, it seems Trem took offense to me, poking fun at a word. Someone using a Pioneer Kuro to review other sets does not make it "the" reference, it just makes it their reference.

It's like if I had this big set of $350,000.00 speakers and told you they were "reference" while watching a movie or listening to music, the truth is, if you wanted to be true to the original mastering (reference) we'd be listening to the audio portion on a set of JBL or Mackie studio monitors in most cases.

That's the only point I was trying to make. Trem used the term like everyone should have the Kuro if they want to be faithful to what they are watching. That simply isn't the case. It is however, a great plasma.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

In truth I was merely stating an observation regarding some reviews I have read, where the reviewer stated that the Pro-111FD would now become part of their test set-up and used to compare sources, such as DVD etc. and other displays.

This is not my opinion. I am not a professional.

I did, however, take offense to Brett's post. Sorry, but I am not accustomed to having wordsmiths pick apart my contributions. I am just trying to offer some novice advise and gleam something from others while having fun.

In the future I will be less sensitive, and think longer about what I post, thanks.

Sorry Brett if I was out of place...you meant no harm and I see that now.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

Trem,

No apologies needed. It's hard to convey the authors "tone" in a post, so confusion does take place. I never take anything I post, too seriously and I hope no one else does.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

Unfortunately, that's not quite how they work and so ambient room light has nothing to do with what a display can produce, only what we can perceive or measure.

Last I read -- a few years ago, admittedly -- DLPs didn't have 100% light rejection. That is, even for "black", light came out of the projector and reached the screen. This is akin to imperfect blacks from light leakage in LCD projectors.

I have no idea how much projectors have advanced, particularly in their light rejection. (As Gregg noted, the importance of this depends on your room light level -- how you perceive it.) Hoping one day to finish my basement and go FP with 100" screen, I want to hear that Projectors are the kings of all displays.

But I doubt FPs exceed the best direct displays for black level, reasoning that the professional reviewers would go nuts over that and compare every TV to an FP instead of the direct-view, black-level champ du-jour.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

Greetings

What happens when you project black onto a white screen? It's not black anymore.

Even if the projector projected nothing into the black bar area of the white screen, the screen would not vanish. It is a white wall in a dark room. Light goes off the screen and reflects into the room and then back onto the screen ...

Regards

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

Michael,

Exactly.. The same can happen "inside" a DLP if the cabinet isn't properly masked or if there is light leakage etc.

We (DLP owners) do not get the razor sharp line between absolute black and white there will always be some bleed between the line it's unavoidable. I personally can "live" with that, to garner all the other benefits that I perceive from my TV.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

This is a secondary effect and has nothing to do with projector performance per se. A projector's minimum light output is not dependent on room lighting.

My question comes from Brett's suggestion that DLP projectors are the current best reference for consumer displays. That implies either they have the best blacks, contrast ratios, and color accuracy...or size trumps all I'm wondering which it is?

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

Greetings

I wouldn't call it reference .. nor would I call the pioneer reference either.

Both are capable of nice images when properly set up, but each has its own set of +ves and -ves ...

And neither should be viewed in a dark room. Backlighting is recommended for both.

Regards

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

Dave,

I can't honestly believe you are going to argue with an ISF Cer't instructor. If anyone knows the technology I'd think Michael would.

Digital Light Projection works by projecting light. Absence of light is black. There are two different ways a DLP set makes "black" it either turns the mirrors off (away from the optics and into an internal absorber) or if the full scene is dark, will turn the light source off. (not sure if Bulb DLP does this, but LED DLP does). Black level can be adversely affected on either a Rear or Front Projection DLP setup by introducing stray light into the scene. On a FP DLP this would be from bright lighting causing washout. In a RP DLP it could be from a bright light reflecting into and inside of the screen or light leakage into the housing (shouldn't happen) or poor matting inside the cabinet.

How do you measure the "black level" performance of a DLP? it doesn't make black, it shuts down mirrors and lighting to do it. So any extraneous environmental lighting could affect performance.

Here is a snip from a great DLP article:

"Paint It Black, Please
Besides rainbows, DLP has the same problem that all current digital displays face: the inability to create a true black. This is because the lamp, even at low power settings, puts out a lot of light. That light has to go somewhere. Engineers have spent a lot of time developing a light path that absorbs or contains as much of the unwanted light as possible, but some still sneaks through onto the screen, making the whole image brighter (and not in a good way). The mirrors can only reflect light; while the area behind the mirrors (on the chip's surface) is painted black, some light is still reflected out of the lens, even when the mirror is tilted away from the screen.

The color and black-level issues I've discussed aren't insurmountable problems. In fact, if the measurements for the latest batch of HD2+ projectors is any indication, they may not be problems for long."

Source:Home Theater: HD2+DLP: The Next Wave

Of course DLP has gotten leaps and bounds better since this article was written in July 2004.

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

I have nothing to argue with Michael about. I'm ignorant about TV calibration, but I know optics and can discuss related aspects. It's apparent that ambient lighting has nothing to do with a display device's fundamental performance. (That is, to first order. I'm assuming that the optical designers use tools such as ASAP so that external stray light doesn't affect their devices' performance in any meaningful way.)

While DLPs are essentially tiny mirrors tilted to reflect light into the image or away from it, previously, the light rejection ability was not perfect and they couldn't produce a pure black. I don't know how far they've come in that regard.

I don't mean to suggest the Kuro is the ultimate arbiter of video images. I was surprised during my personal research to find that plasma's have "come a long way, baby" and seem now the best consumer display tech (at least in the <$10k range).

And you gave a vigorous recommendation of DLP FP as the best available display system, so I was wondering how good they are now. A friendly and sincere question And useful. A former grad school buddy has a room begging for an FP setup; if I can point him to the best options maybe I can talk him into it

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

Dave,

All DLP tech has come a LONG way, all display tech in general has! I wasn't recommending a DLP FP setup, I was saying that the word "reference" means the way the image should be displayed and if we are saying something is reference, then the actual technology the movies were meant to be shown on, is the BIG screen, the commercial DLP FP is the current tech leader in Movie Theaters

If you want reference at home, you need one of those! LOL

I wasn't being serious I was just poking fun at the reference to the word reference a few posts ago!

Re: Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60" vs Samsung HL67A750 67" LED DLP

It's hard to have the equivalent of a 15 minute conversation via daily carrier pigeon messages