SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

I have a Bookshelf + Sub setup in my bed room and full range floor standers + sub in the living room. While my bookshelf setup sounds very good, I will always prefer full range or near full range mains for 2channel.

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

right on, bro!


listen to any cd up until the mid 80's and most of it was mastered pretty flat and sounds really good. the late 80's and on is when it started getting bad, still even the late 80's cd's weren't too bad.


no speaker in the world will make todays cd's sound good. hoepfully this trend will end soon, it has gone on way to long.

if you are a fan of old music that was mastered correctly, then yes, treat yourself to some nice full range speakers. but I wouldn't try and chase nice sound today if you are listening to cd's of today.

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

oh boy, would I like to try a pair of those. eventually.......

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

you don't have to put a price tag on it, good sound doesn't have to cost alot.

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

Well, one of the reasons for this is younger people like their music louder and louder, and it's much easier getting sound "Loud" with heavy limiting if they can't afford an amp that really pushes some signal.

The fundamentals of mixing music hasn't changed much, and a lot of that good old analog gear is still HEAVILY in use, namely those beautiful compressors that add all that nice pretty full rich tone like, the Universal Audio 1176LN Black Face, Silver Face (Different sound) the LA-2A and LA-3A. All these great tools and add amazing sound.

you still dial in EQ's in the same frequencies to pull the slap out of the kick drum, and the "metal" out of a guitar, or the nice smooth lows on a piano.

But man, that hard limiting... It just sounds like everybody is turned up to 11 the whole time, all that dynamic range gets squashed (Which works for pretty much Metal, and Rap / Hip hop / RnB) Thats really the main thing that changed.

Keep in mind, the average consumer can't distinguish the difference between 176.4kHz on $12,000 studio monitors, or 128kbps mp3 on iPod earbuds.

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

I truly don't believe young people REALLY like it, just thats what the industry has pushed to "stand out" and alot of kids only know what they have grown up listening to.

I have shown some young ones the difference and when they realize it, they really are amazed.

I believe there has been alot of good music that had a short life span because of this. it really is a shame cause although the music can be great, if your ears can't take it, you aren't gonna listen again and again.

I tell people..... ever wonder why you are really in the mood to listen to a cd only to realize 10min in , you really were not in the mood to listen to it and shut it off ? ya, thats mastering today.


eventually this will come to an end, it has to. It's like watching HDTV then trying to watch standard definition. eventually people have to be educated or realize it. people take pride in what their eyes see buying HDTV's, but yet ignore what the ears tell them when it comes to music.

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

to touch a but more.......

my nephew who is an ipod freak heard me playing a great old sounding cd on my Large Advents. he shocked me by saying he thinks those speakers sound "GREAT", he said it again and again. he couldn't believe it when I told them how old they were (and how ugly the drivers are). right there I knew young people really didn't like what they have been trained to hear.

he was truly amazed how great music can sound and thats when I knew there is hope. he now buys old cd's (he likes the old music anyway) but he searches out old cd's for great sound and asks me whats the best pressing for certain artists. I never thought in a million years he would ever notice.

but he did and on his own.

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

I never knew the difference in recording thats happening now days but i love the recordings of the 80's. Sounds so beautiful and flat yet i hate how the bass is mixed up in the latest R&B, Pop and all that...

Most of the kids are listening to the trash; they always keep their ipods plugged while they are walking, talking, int he subway and they keep the ipod on random selection. I can't imagine to do that to myself. I have specific number in mind when i want to listen something and i listen about 10-12 songs a day but precisely selected. It just gives a different approach and appreciation to music and the energy as well.

So, i am going out now to 83rd & Lexington ave (NYC) to check out the Magnepan speakers. The B&W CM9 have not arrived and will arrive in showroom in a week time. I will wait on that one as well. I have a great feeling about SVS full range and i think i will settle with that but before i do that, i will go around the world at least twice. Will i ever give up... not so fast i guess...

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

very smart my man.

go demo for yourself and see what you like, the best way to do it.


I am glad to hear you listen to quality music. I can never understand when I hear a young person today say old cd's are too quiet. yet with todays cd's I can barely get the volume past 1/4 the way up on my 50WAC amp. but an old cd I can crank past halfway and the more you crank those old cd's or better yet old vinyl the better they sound. you can really hear the depth in the music and really get into it.

but todays music is ruined by todays mastering. I still buy new music I "have to have" but it doesn't get the repeated play it would have if mastered correctly.

even the old artists that release new music let their music be ruined. that really shocks me and I cannot understand it. I swear some cd's are so bad you would think they had a built in amp. its truly is terrible and I cannot understand how an artist can live with their music being ruined or not know its going on, or worse, ask for it or know/let it happen.

good luck on your search, I will be interested to see what you come up with. my towers go low and have great bass, but are a bit bright for my tastes but was the best I could find for my budget when I was looking for a 5.1 system. I wish SVS was making speakers when I was looking, when I got my sub from them thats all they made at that time

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

Well thats because of the limiting as I said. The old CD's ARE a lot quieter, in their own way. One thing I think you're not counting on is you have a nice system... People who DON'T have a nice system, can't really get the sound out of those old LP's and Original recordings, thats why the signals are crushed so hard, to take advantage of POS speakers.

When we mix down crucial tests are POS computer speakers and stock car stereo's. Because thats where the majority of the music will be heard, so thats how it's made. And with POS speakers a really crushed signal is going to sound loud, and kids want loud most the time, as they get older they appreciate the sound quality more.

Ooh, also. The artist has little say in what happens, unless a band member is also the producer. Producer calls the shot, thats more or less end of story. Kinda sad, but it's all about the money man, find what works, get everything that sounds like it, every flavor of the month, do it till nobody can stand it anymore then find somethin' new. "Boy Bands" was the longest lasting gimmick, I think.




Urjo, one last suggestion. You might want to look into a nice 2 channel EQ so you can really dial in the sound you want *AFTER* you're used to w/e speakers you settle with.

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

Oooh, One last thing to think of Ralph.

Tape.

It's pretty much gone... Even the biggest bands record in protools, even though tape sounds MUUUUCH better, it's getting phased out. Engineers don't want that.

Also more and more music is being mixed "in the box" meaning not using outboard gear... The highest of the top 40 / flavor of the month stuff is still done on a board with nice analog gear.. But even some of that is touched in pro tools

Since pro tools is a digital platform "bits" of music fall off when it gets quiet, meaning if you have a recording of a nice big cymbal hit, and you have it decay... well, towards the end it's going to sound like "shhhh" as it gets quiet it'll sound like "Sh_h__ch__hch___" thats another reason, tied to lack of analog tape, that mastering is done the way it is today.

Kinda sad.



At any rate !!! Sorry to Hijack this thread Urjo. I hope you find what you're looking for, keep us updated.

And if you're interested in some of the processes of recording today let me know Ralph

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

my system's didn't cost alot if anything at all.

my main vintage amp is a low end Integrated Kenwood KA-400 (free on craigslist). only 45WAC but it doesn't screw with the music. I own three different Onkyo theater amps and not one can touch my vintage low end amp for sound quality on old cd's. I just had to adjust the DC offset and she was good to go.

the Large (walnut) Advents cost me $25 at salvation army (very nice shape) and I bought some new surrounds ($25 on ebay) and fixed them myself, still the cleanest job I ever did on a set of speakers , you can't even tell they were done. these speakers are so non-fatiguing its not funny. they may lack in the upper frequencys but the warmth and smooth sound they give really lets you listen for hours. I still can't find a speaker I like as much.

my turntable is a very nice condition Sony PS-X75 Biotracer DD TT ($70 on ebay including shipping). a very nice sounding table matched with a very cheap in price Shure M97xE cart/stylus ($35 special deal on amazon at the time). my total cost for this whole system was $155 and my $3,000 surround system cannot touch it for 2-channel stereo music.

for a cd player I am using a Technics DVD-A10 and although it is a dvd player too, its a great sounding cd player!!! it has audiophile build quality and with the techinics DSP defeated is the best cd player I have in my house. the cost was FREE from a friend and as you can see this system didn't cost me but next to nothing and sounds better than my surround system which cost alot more. my Paradigm towers I believe go down to 32hz but they can't touch the warmth of the Advents and are a bit too bright.

good sound doesn't have to cost alot. when I was unsatisfied with my surround system for stereo music I heard vintage equipment can be had cheap, well a little work and I found it to be true.

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

ya, I have heard of the use of pro tools. have read alot about music and the mastering, mixing and technics online. I try to understand why its done today. wasn't pro tools being used at the end of the 80's ? or something like that ? it is a shame tape isn't used anymore, but I heard even with the use of todays technology, you can get great sound and even better than the past if it was done correctly. look at the doors vinyl boxset, partly done digitally ? but it does have alot of resolution and sounds damn good considering how it was done.

nice to know young guys like yourself are around and can give hope that even with todays technology that things can be turned around sound wise. its not so much the technology its the people and industry that force mastering engineers to work the way they want and not use their craft the way they would like to.

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

Urjo, I feel that you are making a big mistake trying to throw money at the problem before you have identified the issue. Larger speakers in your current setup will likely accentuate the problems that you are having (boomy bass, etc.). I'm surprised that no one has commented on your room diagram... there are some serious issues with the current setup. Are you sitting on the couch listening to the music or are you standing in the middle of the room? I see no central seating for the screen or front speakers? Is the FR speaker really off from the front wall and the FL speaker against the wall? The rear wall is a large glass door... this is optimally bad.

The tweeter should be at ear level.
Your mains MUST be at the same height. Having one at 6' and one at 2.5' is going to cause serious problems with how they image.

Base = baseball, Bass = music/guitars. You should setup your receiver so it sounds good for all of your music. If things are 'boomy' (which they probably are given the empty, highly reflective room) then you will need to fix the issue acoustically. More expensive speakers will NOT FIX the issue.

PLEASE do the following experiment. Place your front speakers (FL and FR) at least 3+ feet from all the walls and connect them to your receiver. Ensure that they are the same distance from each wall (i.e. left is 4 ft from the back, right is 4ft from the back). Place the subwoofer either at your listening position or between the two speakers. Ensure that the mains are at the same height and that the tweeters are at ear level (at a seating listening position). Set the receiver up so that it only sees 2 speakers + sub and is running in stereo (i.e. it is sending <80Hz to the sub and >80Hz to the mains). Measure the distance between the two speakers. Place your seat 1.5x that distance back from the main speakers. Ensure that you are not close to the rear wall. If that big glass door has drapes, close them. Now fire up the system and listen to a well recorded & mastered CD (Dark Side of the Moon, etc.). Your system is now setup as well as possible (minus room treatments). For this experiment you may want to place your speakers along the long wall... this really helps with side reflections and will limit the effects of the big glass door in the room. If the speakers still are not to your liking then go shopping. Your current room has a lot of reflectivity (hard floors, glass doors, no wall treatments, etc.). Improving one or all of these things would greatly improve any system that you have in that room.

As Ralph mentions, great values can be had with used gear... if you know what you are buying and if you know how to fix any problems.

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

ignore

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

I was going to mention his room, but I think SVS CS chimed in with help for that.


yes , yes, yes and yes for everything greg recommended. I didn't catch that his speakers weren't apart at equal distance or height. that IS a big no no and as greg said, will not help imaging at all. another recommendation which will or will not help you depending on your seating is toe in your speakers a bit equally, if your centered in the room this can really help.

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

Simply put,

Don't expect pinpoint imaging all around the room either, it's not going to happen. You need to discern "Crital Listening" from "Casual Listening". Right now I am sitting 10' from my Left Main and maybe 6' from my Right Main. I am not being critical about my listening either.. Yes the stereo image falls apart at this seating position, doubly so since I have my mains toed in for my main seating position which is in the back of the room, dead center at ear level.

And then there are other times where I would gladly trade pinpoint stereo source for that big time hanging, light sound that you get with Planar Electrostats or Ribbons.

I really need to get off my butt and get my ribbon line arrays finished and set up my "critical listening" 2 channel rig, complete with tube power for the ribbons and solid state for the low end.

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

Yes i sit on the couch, the dining table area, and stand in the center while listening to music.

I checked the B&W CM7 today and they were great; however, i find SVS Book Shelf more clear and crystal than B&W. B&W did have very solid bass and front voice; great for Rock and 80"s music, but SVS is far more crystal listening to classical music or so. Now i like SVS better but still will listen to few other types.
I think i needed to send the room design to SVS directly which i didn't. I will and then they will get back to me accordingly i assume. Regardless, i will try this set up mentioned by Greg by Monday. Got to get ready for the storm that is happening from Sat & Sun.

I enjoy this thread so much; i am really excited to find all these new technology. I doubt I would find anything like this in any book or so... It's just great. I am getting a little addicted to it now...

Okay,, in a few days now...

Thanks

~urjo

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

remember, those speakers you auditioned will sound totally different in your house.

also, don't confuse crytal clear with bright. not saying the SVS speakers are brighter but sometimes less is more and the B&W just might be warmer which is a very good thing when it comes to 2-ch music.

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

OK, now I'm impressed. You liked the SVS better than the CM7's. I almost bought CM7's this summer but the center was not so good (and they stretched my budget more than I wanted). Guess I'm going to have to get some SVS towers in to demo. Maybe soon there will be some Axiom M60's for sale.

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

remember, those speakers you auditioned will sound totally different in your house.

Well i did realize that where i checked the B&Ws, the room was full with acoustics. Also, there were multiple amps and EQ before the speakers. I took that in the consideration and also thought the SVS would sound far better in that room compared to my home.

If I were to describe them, i would say they were warmer, front voice and solid bass; sounded very rich for sure. But SVS has clear and brighter/sharp voice, a little deeaper and a bit delicate bass. I wanted to check the B&W CM9"s but they are new and will be in about 2 weeks from now...

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

I checked out few pairs of B&W speakers at another dealer. He had it hooked with just an old receiver with an old DVD player; not enough acoustics in the room either. I played my own selected CDs. Out of few, i only liked the 804 series. They were warm and very present but not as natural and clear/bright as SVS. 804's were $4700.00 and i was still not willing to let go the SVS regardless their performance.

Now i am convinced so far and do like the SVS. I changed a few position and it sounds much better as well. However, i am going to order a pair of the MTS series and see which one are better and finally return the other or so...

I will post my final reply after i receive and compare the MTS towers with the MBS...

Once again, thank you so much for the support..

Re: SVS Speakers... I am happy now...

I finally ordered the MTS towers a week ago and am enjoying them. They sound just great. The bass is much better and deeper than the bookshelf speakers. I find them a little warmer and more front/present as well.
I doubt if there is any spot in my room that I have not tried putting the speakers. I spent a lot in shipping, and I went so many places to check other technology and speakers, and after all the effort, search and help, now it just feels more than worth it.

Again, this forum is just great and the help here is more than anyone can imagine. I also don't want new user to have any bad impression about the SVS speakers as it was said "a personal taste" and I am more than happy with the SVS- MTS Towers now. (4 stars for SVS customer service as well)

Again, many thanks for all your support.

Warm regards...

~urjo:

Re: SVS Speakers... I am not happy, can anyone help

Good. Glad you like them afterall............