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TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

#31
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3/7/09 at 10:03am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Howson
I would love to see some screen captures if you could post them. It is easy to do in VLC Media Player:
VLC media player - Overview

Just go File, Open Disc, change Disc Device to the drive letter of your DVD drive.

Then the menu screen should start. Then just go Video / Snap Shot to take captures.

I'll post captures from the original DVD to compare if you like.

I've not done this before. Hope it works!




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#32
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3/7/09 at 12:47pm
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

I know it's hard to judge from screen shots, but the color looks really great on this release. Hopefully it will be stunning on Blu-ray.
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#33
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3/7/09 at 2:00pm
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Comparison of the old DVD to the new - therobe2 . A little bit more picture info on both sides and top of the new DVD.

Roland Lataille
Cinerama web site:
http://cineramahistory.com

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#34
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3/7/09 at 2:57pm
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

On your screenshots, the OLD dvd looks sharper and with a lot more color.
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#35
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3/8/09 at 6:58am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Pffft... no comparison. The new DVD looks waay better.

-J. Theakston

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#36
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3/8/09 at 8:39am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas R
I've not done this before. Hope it works!
Thanks very much. I'll put up some more comparisons with the old DVD soon. I think it looks way better, the colour looks great, grain is reduced, and it doesn't have that strange boosted brightness look.

Great work Fox and Lowry, congratulations to everyone involved with it!

LEFT, OLD DVD (PAL version), NEW DVD (NTSC) on RIGHT



Old on left, new on right (look at purple sky on the old one, whereas the new one has a proper blue sky. And the old image looks dark and dirty.)









Not only is the old DVD cropped on the sides, it is also cropped on both the top and the bottom perhaps to preserve the 2.55:1 ratio, but not the actual image. The new transfer has more of the original image on all four sides.
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#37
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3/8/09 at 9:16am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

I'll just remind that it is simply impossible to tell much from screencaps. I'm sure the new DVD looks great - the old DVD certainly did not.
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#38
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3/8/09 at 5:15pm
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
I'll just remind that it is simply impossible to tell much from screencaps.
It is? I can see a lot of differences in the above comparisons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
I'm sure the new DVD looks great - the old DVD certainly did not.
How do you know this other than by comparing the above screencaps?

Are you just assuming that since Fox spent millions of dollars on the restoration that it must look better?
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#39
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3/8/09 at 5:27pm
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

No, Simon, I've talked to someone who's actually seen it and compared it - you know, not with a screen capture program, none of which, as you well know, are optimal, and most of which don't usually resemble accurately much of anything. As an example, on that site DVD Beaver, there is a comparison of Kurosawa's Ran. According to the site guy and the screencaps, the new Optimum transfer is the clear winner. So, I ordered it, being a big fan of the film and all. Well, it isn't the clear winner - the Criterion is the clear winner but you wouldn't know that from the screencaps on that site. You would know it by running the two transfers side by side, where the winner is instantly clear.
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#40
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3/8/09 at 7:25pm
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Of course screen captures aren't definitive, but to say they have no use at all in comparing transfers is an exaggeration. I understand different MPEG2 codecs decode slightly differently, so you can't be completely sure that the data will be represented properly off the disc. I also appreciate that the eyes and brain respond differently to moving pictures than to stills, but if you are comparing the same frame, this doesn't really matter.

That comparison of Ran doesn't say that the Optimum version is easily better, it just says that the reviewer feels it is more authentic to how the film looked theatrically. I also think that PAL DVDs tend to look more desaturated compared to NTSC discs, whether this is a side effect of the extra resolution or the way the colour is encoded I don't know.

But as always, 'buyer beware!'. Moreover, differences in well made transfers may come down to a personal preference, but this comparison of The Robe is something different, it is a comparison of an early "let's release this film anyway we can" DVD, compared to a restoration that will be the definitive version of this film on home video for perhaps the next decade or more.
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#41
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3/9/09 at 3:46am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

I know I am in the minority on this, but I llike the old disc of The Robe. the transfer was far better than two earlier letterbox laserdisc releases as was the sound.

Remember, restoration does not always mean great improvement. the old Pinochio from Disney was from a restoration and it looked terrible. The recent Quo Vadis, badly colored, wrongly colored and too dark, is also from a new restorratioin. No thanks !!!
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#42
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3/9/09 at 4:31am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Looking at the screen caps I can see why there's more picture infomation down both sides....everyone looks a bit slimmer!
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#43
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3/9/09 at 5:02am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

The problem with screencaps in general is that most people use the convenient JPG format to show them on the Internet, which means lossy compression.

-J. Theakston

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#44
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3/9/09 at 6:05am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Thank you for the screen shots.

Please compare the new DVD to this scene on the Lowry web site - LOWRY DIGITAL RESTORES "THE ROBE" . I did a compare to the old DVD - The Robe , and it looks like a lot is missing from the original frame but maybe that was never intended to be shown?

Roland Lataille
Cinerama web site:
http://cineramahistory.com

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#45
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3/9/09 at 6:10am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

I haven't seen the new version of THE ROBE yet (I'll be buying the Blu-ray), but I can say that I find the old DVD so dirty and full of specks that it was not a pleasant experience to watch it.
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#46
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3/9/09 at 6:11am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Batson
Looking at the screen caps I can see why there's more picture infomation down both sides....everyone looks a bit slimmer!
The old disc is zoomed in, which makes everyone appear slightly bigger. The new disc has more information at the top and bottom too.

Look at how skinny the people at the far right background look on the third image down! The Chretien lenses used for the first three Fox CinemaScope films (The Robe, How to Marry a Millionaire and Beneath the 12 Mile Reef) severely over-squeezed objects at the edges of the frame, especially when they were behind the plane of best focus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Theakston
The problem with screencaps in general is that most people use the convenient JPG format to show them on the Internet, which means lossy compression.
Each of those images would be nearly 1 MB each if they were in PNG format. That would make the page impossible for slow connection users to load, and unfair for the forum owners.

Having said that, I encoded them at the lowest compression level possible, and I can't see any compression artifacts.
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#47
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3/9/09 at 6:18am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolandL
Thank you for the screen shots.

Please compare the new DVD to this scene on the Lowry web site - LOWRY DIGITAL RESTORES "THE ROBE" . I did a compare to the old DVD - The Robe , and it looks like a lot is missing from the original frame but maybe that was never intended to be shown?
I don't have the new DVD yet, I'll probably have it by late next week. I used the screen captures that Douglas R kindly made at the top of this thread, then I added roughly the same capture from the original DVD.

The old DVD crops the image on all four sides. It is impossible to say for sure, but it seems the new transfer managed to get more of the image off the elements. So I suspect it is closer to what it looked like theatrically.

Keep in mind for the premiere screening of The Robe, the film was exhibited from two pieces of film, one for the image using the entire silent aperture, thus producing a 2.66:1 image, and another interlocked projector with a piece of mag film was used for the sound.

Of course after this Fox finished the specifications for the 4 track mag sound on the print.

You may want to remove all the comparison images from your quote so this page loads faster. (No need for all of them to be on the page twice)
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#48
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3/9/09 at 6:52am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Each of those images would be nearly 1 MB each if they were in PNG format. That would make the page impossible for slow connection users to load, and unfair for the forum owners.

Yes, that's the problem. Most sites cater to convenience, but the point of a visual comparison is to have an unaltered picture. Sure, you can gauge color and, to a degree, sharpness with a JPG, but color range, compression and a number of other factors are lost.

You may not see the compression, but it's there (look at Burton's cape in the last pic around the gold leaf).

If you're going to do comparisons of screencaps, particularly BDs, the best way to do it is to have a JPG, but also an alternative link to a photobucket account or whatever that has uncompressed TIFF or PNG file.

-J. Theakston

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#49
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3/9/09 at 10:06am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

On top of that, different programs save jpegs at different levels of compression. Scaling the image is another. Some of the screen shots in this thread are no longer at their native DVD resolution. They are less. And when an image is presented in a post in the HTF image mode, one doesn't see the image at full size.

In short: When one saves an image, there are a number of variables to deal with.

DVD Beaver uses some quality controlled conditions, and I'm sure the eventual ROBE Blu-Ray screenshots will be something to see.
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#50
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3/9/09 at 1:18pm
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

I had no idea until I listened to the commentary track on the new DVD that the opening shot of the arena - and which is, and always has been, of poor picture quality compared to the rest of the film - was taken from "Demetrius and the Gladiators". I suppose Fox wanted a spectacular looking scene to open the film with.
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#51
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3/9/09 at 3:45pm
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

That scene from demetrius doe NOT open the flat version of the Robe.

I was hoping that Fox would come through with their promise of the Flat Version for this new set. iN the early 90s, Fox found a stereo track for the flat version. All the broadcasts of the flat version have been mono. The flat version was shot in three strip Technicolor and the scope versin was shot in Eastman Color (Deluxe). It'
s a better film too with better editing and camera angles.
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#52
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3/9/09 at 5:19pm
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregK
On top of that, different programs save jpegs at different levels of compression..
VLC Media Player by default captures in PNG format. I converted them to JPG using the lowest compression setting in Irfanview.

I resized my captures to make them the same size as Douglas R's, it would be very hard to do a fair comparison if one set of images are much bigger than the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Caps
I was hoping that Fox would come through with their promise of the Flat Version for this new set.
Yes me too. It would've made an excellent 2 disc set, and it would've justified a price increase. Obviously they've spent a lot of money on this new transfer of the CinemaScope version. But it would've been understandable if they just presented the flat version based on the best available element. Maybe that is what they wanted to do, but they released the best element looked terrible?

The thing is, I just can't see how they would make any money releasing the flat version on its own.
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#53
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3/10/09 at 5:34am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
he flat version was shot in three strip Technicolor and the scope versin was shot in Eastman Color (Deluxe).

No it wasn't. The flat version was definitely Eastman. Cineric had the camera neg a year ago.

-J. Theakston

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#54
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3/10/09 at 6:20am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

I think the production of A Star is Born started in 3 strip Technicolor, before going to WarnerScope (which was just Zeiss anamorphic lenses, first used for The Command) before finally settling on CinemaScope. Ronald Haver talks about this in his book on the film, but I can't work out where I put it.
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#55
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3/10/09 at 6:27am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

I have always been told that The Robe flat was tech. told this by someone who worked n the vid transfer.

Star is Bron started flat, but only tested in Warnerscope. Then went to Cinemascope.
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#56
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3/10/09 at 6:40am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Caps
I have always been told that The Robe flat was tech. told this by someone who worked n the vid transfer.

Star is Bron started flat, but only tested in Warnerscope. Then went to Cinemascope.
The 3 strip Technicolor version of The Man that Got Away is on the DVD is an extra.

The scene in the restoration where Garland is working as a waitress at the burger joint is Warnerscope.
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#57
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3/10/09 at 7:19am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
I think the production of A Star is Born started in 3 strip Technicolor, before going to WarnerScope (which was just Zeiss anamorphic lenses, first used for The Command) before finally settling on CinemaScope. Ronald Haver talks about this in his book on the film, but I can't work out where I put it.

I wouldn't be surprised. A STAR IS BORN had such a checkered production history, and just about every system was tested at that point. Early announcements were for 3-D and flat widescreen.

Likewise, THE COMMAND was shot simultaneously in 3-D/flat ws, but obviously never released that way (nor was it completely edited in 3-D until recent years).

Quote:
I have always been told that The Robe flat was tech. told this by someone who worked n the vid transfer.

They were wrong. How could they possibly tell from an interneg?

If you've got the old AMC transfer, watch it sometime and check out those faded opticals. Also, no red halos on metal.

-J. Theakston

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#58
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3/10/09 at 8:01am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Interviewer
At the time you were asked to do The Robe were they [Fox] planning to do it in CinemaScope?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Koster
No. At that time, also, the first three-screen process, Cinerama, was shown. [Darryl] Zanuck was very enthusiastic about it. We talked about how fine it would be to do it in that process, but he said it would go into tremendous costs, because you had to have three cameras, three times the film, and three projectors, and the theaters were not equipped for it. But I said "This particular picture, with this tremendous scope of history and expensive sets, and mass production and huge numbers of people, would really lend itself very well to the large screen."

One evening Zanuck called and said, "Come over to the projection room on Western Avenue and see a new process of wide screen." We went there and the inventor [possibly Henri Chretien, or he could mean Fox R&D scientist Earl Sponable] was there , and they showed us CinemaScope samples. It was very impressive, and it had the great advantage over Cinerama that it needed only one camera and one projector. And the negative only had to be the size [35mm] it originally was It's squeezed in the lens and then spread out in the projector. We saw it and we were very enthusiastic...

Zanuck asked me what I thought, and I said "I can only say one thing. If the motion pictures that Edison had invented had been this way, on the wide screen, and somebody came today and said wouldn't it be nice to have it only one-third that size and width, nobody would do it."

The Robe director Henry Koster, interviewed by Irene Kahn Atkins, Directors Guild of America Oral Histories.
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#59
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3/10/09 at 10:23am
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Jack Theakston, you certainly can't tell from an interneg how a film was shot. Neither can you tell from the little information I gave that it was an interneg, so thanks for assuming.
Said person was doing some restoration work on The Robe and Demetrius for Laserdisc at that time and found much info stored at Fox as to how both films were made. Also found a stereo track for the flat film (didn't know it had one till then).

In spite of the above screencaps. my old dvd of The Robe does NOT have purple skies, they are pure blue.
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#60
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3/10/09 at 1:48pm
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Re: TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Caps
I have always been told that The Robe flat was tech. told this by someone who worked n the vid transfer.
The only way the person who worked on video transfer would know that would be if they were transferring from the ONeg. It is extremely rare for that to be the case, and typically only happens where other comparable elements can't be used. I suspect your friend? colleague? was working from seps, which might lead him/her to the erroneous conclusion that the flat version was shot in Technicolor.

\"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player.\"-- Roger Ebert

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Home Theater Forum  ›  Forums  ›  Blu-ray, DVD, Digital Downloads  ›  DVD (and Other Std-Def Software): Film and Documentary  ›  TCFHE Press Release: The Robe (DVD/Blu-ray)