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Need Opinions on used dSLR

#1
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Greetings all.

I've been a point-and-shoot user for many many moons. However, in another life I used to be a professional videographer, so I have a bit of knowledge about composition, aperture and so forth. (Still need to refresh, but that's another story.)

Anyway... long story short... my brother has offered to sell me his older dSLR, knowing that I've been wanting one for some time now. (Plus my current 7.1MP point-and-shoot is dying.)

He's offered me a Nikon D70s, with an 18-70mm lens (I believe the lens that came with it), carrying case, extra battery pack and original packaging and documentation.

The drawback... the built-in flash isn't working.

He's offered the whole kit to me for $350.00 (Canadian). I'd love to get it, but I'm concerned as to what it may cost to get the flash fixed. (I've spoken to the local camera shops, and they tell me that Nikon charges 90/hr for service fees.)

So... thoughts? I'd jump on this deal in a sec if the flash was working, but I'm uncertain if I should do it with that problem.

Should I buy it, or would it be better for me to look at a new entry-level dSLR package?
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#2
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

That's a decent price for the camera and lens. Instead of spending money on getting the built-in flash fixed, though, I would buy an external flash. You'll get much better flash photos -- I never use the pop-up flash on my Canon 40D dSLR.

I'm sure one of the Nikon users here can recommend an external flash for you.
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#3
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Second what Scott said. Pop up flash is crap anyway, so again, just wait for a Nikon user to pop on for flash information.
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#4
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Hi, Tony.

I use Nikon gear, and own both the original D70 and the D200 (and also still use the 18-70DX lens you mentioned). And I agree w/ the others. Don't worry about the built-in flash too much -- though it can be useful in a pinch (and does have limited wireless capability on the D70s). If you think you'll need flash, you're far better off getting an external unit like the SB600 or SB800, which will allow you to bounce the light (among other things) for much better results. If $ is a big issue, you might even try going full manual (for flash) w/ a cheap external unit instead.

As for the rest, the D70s + 18-70DX should still make a very nice starter kit, especially for the asking price.

_Man_

Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".

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#5
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Thanks guys. The input is much appreciated!

Turns out my bro is also offering an additional zoom lens if I want it. (For extra) An AF-S DX Zoom Nikkor 55-200. So I'd have a heck of a good starter set.

Man, thanks for the Nikon info. I'm starting to look in to getting an SB600, budget permitting. Might have to wait a couple of months, but I can still use the old point-and-shoot for flash situations while I'm relearning how to use a REAL camera.

I don't know a great deal about using external flashes...and the advantages therein. Can someone direct me to some info on the basics?
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#6
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Tony,

Here is an in-depth article on flash photography using the Canon system. While some of it is Canon specific, many of the principles will apply to any camera system, though.

Some of the basic advantages of an external flash are (1) better coverage due to more lighting power, (2) the ability to "bounce" flash for a more indirect, less harsh light, and (3) ability to move the flash off the camera for more precise lighting.

With an external flash, you can also pretty much say goodbye to the red-eye effect, too.
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#7
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Thanks Scott! Very informative... lots to soak up.
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#8
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

BTW, RE: moving the flash off the camera, when you get that SB600, you may also want to consider getting a flash sync cord (probably ~$30) specifically for that purpose -- you may or may not also eventually want to get some sort of flash bracket for this.

Also, consider getting some sort of diffuser for the flash. I usually leave the diffuser "dome" that came w/ my SB800 on the flash, which is very similar to the popular Sto-fen Omni-Bounce.

Most/all of this stuff will probably be covered by that site that Scott mentioned.

_Man_

Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".

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#9
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

I use a little SB400 on a D40. It was 100 bucks and a huge step above the internal. Good Luck
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#10
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Tony,

Here is a good source of no nonense information.

KenRockwell.com

Ken is partial to Nikon but since that is what you are thinking of getting that can be useful. I guess my concern and I think if you read what Rockwell writes is although that D-70 will take great pictures it is I think two generations of Nikon old and may be considered by some to be obsolute. It sounds like the drill that may serious amatures follow is to invest in some good high quality lenses and then up grade the body as improvements are made.

Don't worry about the flash Ken recomends the SB400 flash that ErichH mentoned aboue.
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#11
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Quote:
Here is a good source of no nonense information.

Ha ha.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Ha!

"Sam, you are the biggest nutter we have here."
Blog: Navesink.net - My Flickr Stream is here - Click here to Email me - Updates at Twitter & FriendFeed - Join the HTF Flickr Pool

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#12
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Oh man, that's a GOOD ONE! Ok yes, KR DOES have some good information on his site but you have to wade through a metric buttload of nonsense to get to a lot of it. His technical information is pretty solid but his philosophical musings are often SPECIFICALLY to get a rise out of people. Take his advice with LARGE grains of salt.

If you want good Nikon flash advice the place to start is with Joe McNally. Good info on his blog and especially in his book. Terry White and Scott Kelby also have good blog posts on nikon speedlights.

I agreed with the SB 600. I got to borrow an SB400 for an evening in Hollywood on the HTF trip and it filled in in a pinch, but I would rather spring for the flexibility of the 600.

I'd be happy to answer any tech specific questions you have about Nikons CLS, or Creative Lighting System, I just love using it and am adding to my kit by the week. You can see my 'strobist' sty;e portable studio light kit in use in this Flickr set:
08-Kardel-Chiefs Election - a set on Flickr

08-ChiefKardel-6301 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Not sure how capable the D70s is with CLS tho! I only have a D300

"Sam, you are the biggest nutter we have here."
Blog: Navesink.net - My Flickr Stream is here - Click here to Email me - Updates at Twitter & FriendFeed - Join the HTF Flickr Pool

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#13
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Quote:
Originally Posted by CB750

Don't worry about the flash Ken recomends the SB400 flash that ErichH mentoned aboue.

Agree with CB and of course, Sam. The 600 is the flash to go for. I only mentioned the 400 as a budget choice to get you past the internal problem with the least expense.

Happy Xmas eve to everyone!
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#14
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Hi again guys!

Once again, thanks for all the input... lots to learn and it's much appreciated.

I'd already read some of KR's stuff, and learned from other sources to take his musings with a grain of salt.

I picked up the camera two days ago, and I'm having a great time fiddling with it. Only thing I need is a UV filter for the lens(es). My bro kept his for his swanky new D90. (I got the additional lens from him as well.)

While it may be a couple of generations old... I already see the advantages (and picture quality) beyond the typical P-and-S cams. Wow!

I'm still going to get the SB600 when the budget permits, but the good news is that I was able to fix the onboard flash. So I can use it until I can afford a new SB600. (Found the instructions online... apparently a common issue with this model, due to the hinge design of the pop-up. Zapped myself a couple of times, but was able to repair it in about an hour.)

Now I just gotta decide whether to shoot in RAW or JPG. (I know... another can of worms...)
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#15
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Tony,

Congrats on the new camera. Instead of a UV filter, consider just using the lens hood for protection. Personally, I rarely use a UV filter -- only if I'm in a harsh environment. Otherwise, I'd rather not put additional, unnecessary glass in front of the lens.

Also, I highly recommend shooting RAW as soon as possible. I wish I had started immediately when I bought my first DSLR. It does take a little learning on how to best do the post processing workflow, but once you have it down it does not add as much time to the process as you may think.
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#16
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Tony,

Good to hear you managed to fix the built-in flash yourself.

Yeah, shoot RAW. If you're not sure, try both -- the D70s can shoot RAW+JPEG though the JPEGs are "Basic" quality only. Also, if you want to save on card space, you might consider shooting RAW only and then use some free(?) utility program to quickly batch extract the basic quality JPEGs hidden inside the NEF files after you transfer them to your computer -- apparently, Nikon (and probably most other camera makers) uses this trick for fast playback/review performance on the camera's built-in display.

And for actual RAW conversion, you might want to try Nikon's own free Nikon View first unless you also happened to have Nikon Capture (from your brother) or some other better software for that. Nikon View is pretty limited in terms of adjustments/flexibility and such (and doesn't offer batch processing), but it works fine for basic conversion (and is, again, free). You can also use its Adobe plug-in w/ Photoshop though that plug-in is even more limiting than NV itself (but should probably let you benefit from other aspects of Photoshop, eg. batch processing). Don't know if Adobe has made any real improvements recently on its RAW conversion for Nikon files (w/ default settings that is), but it used to produce absolutely horrendous results unless you know exactly what you're doing (and basically ignore all the in-camera settings).

RE: using filters for protection, I've come to roughly the same conclusion/decision as Scott and mainly just rely on my lens hoods (and lens caps or my hand or similar) for most of the protection unless in certain particularly adverse conditions. I do currently make an exception though for my 35mm f/2 (and use a filter on it) just because the lens front element is not recessed *and* a useable hood is a bit too shallow to offer much protection -- well, the 18-70DX-plus-hood combo (you have) also leaves the lens front element more exposed than I like, and I regularly find myself keeping either my hand or lens cap on it for protection. Most tele lenses have deep enough hoods (or might also have well recessed front elements) to not worry much about that while most wide lenses have shallow hoods and forward/exposed front elements. Of course, if you just spent well over $1K on a great new lens (like the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 VR), it'd also be hard not to 2nd guess yourself about not using a protective filter.

_Man_

Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".

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#17
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Again, thanks much guys. I have a hood for the 55-200, and I'll likely stick with that. The 18-70DX though... I'll have to get a hood and/or filter. As the front element is rather exposed, I might still stick with a UV filter for that one. However, you've now made me think twice about adding extra glass.

As for shooting RAW, it's primarily the post-processing time that scares me. Now, I'm not uncomfortable with computers (I used to be a network admin)... but I'm not super-skilled with photo editing. That said, I'm Mac based. iPhoto had no problem importing the test NEF shots I've done... and I also have Photoshop CS3, and have very briefly played with it's RAW import abilities. (Again, no problems with NEF files.)

I'm not sure how iPhoto processes the NEF files. I can view them and seemingly do everything to them that I can do to their JPG counter-parts. However, the NEF files remain intact on the system. Needs a little more investigation!

How do you guys process your RAW images? What is your workflow, and do you have standard things you do?

Thanks!
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#18
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Whalen

How do you guys process your RAW images? What is your workflow, and do you have standard things you do?

Thanks!

Tony,

I usually use Canon's RAW conversion program, and will make slight adjustments to exposure as needed (although I try to get this right in camera). I then batch convert to jpeg for slideshows, storing online, etc. -- Canon's software makes batch processing very easy. RAW files needing more work than just a slight exposure adjustment I will instyead process using Adobe Camera RAW within Photoshop Elements.

Unfortunately, Canon's software is for Canon RAW files only. One of the Nikon shooters here will have to give you feedback on the ease of use of Nikon's corresponding tool.
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#19
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Seriously, if you are going to go through the pain of shooting raw, don't mess with other editing programs just spend the $100 (find a student to buy it for you) and go get Lightroom.

"Sam, you are the biggest nutter we have here."
Blog: Navesink.net - My Flickr Stream is here - Click here to Email me - Updates at Twitter & FriendFeed - Join the HTF Flickr Pool

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#20
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

I usually just use the old Nikon Capture v4.4(?). I don't have any "real" workflow for RAW itself -- this stuff really isn't a whole lot different even if I only shoot JPEG -- although I do tend to shoot w/ RAW processing in mind, which means my in-camera settings generally produce results that aid my shooting technique for RAW processing rather than yield final results straight from camera. Some expert Nikon users even load the camera w/ something like gamma neutral tone curve to help maximize this aspect of the RAW workflow (and even use color bias filters to maximize the sensor's dynamic range for each color channel) -- such tricks help make functions like the histogram that much more useful.

When I process, I do try to organize images into batches w/ similar adjustments so I can automate things as much as possible. Not sure what Lightroom offers, but most decent RAW conversion software will have a decent batch processing mode to help out. Also, I do not like the idea of modifying my original files, so I do not use that capability of the Nikon NEF (RAW) format -- Nikon's NEF format is basically an enhanced variation on TIFF much like Adobe's DNG format, except NEF is proprietary to Nikon.

If I'm doing batches of pics to be put on CD to give out, I also set things up for one final batch pass in Photoshop CS that does whatever final tweaks for the desired output (eg. small-to-medium-size prints) plus any copyright info embedding, etc. Generally, you do not want your processed master files to already have those final tweaks added since they should vary according to desired output type. Likewise, I also use a batch script for churning out web-sized images for uploading to my pbase account or similar.

_Man_

Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".

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#21
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Tony,

Random thoughts:

Save up for the SB600 – it’s well worth it. Stay away from the 400 – it’s weak(er), and you can’t bounce it in a vertical-format shot (it tilts, but does not swivel).

You don’t need a flash bracket; you’ll find it bulky and impractical. Instead, look into a Sto-Fen Omni Bounce. It’s only $20 or so and, coupled with the SB600’s tilt/swivel capabilities, with give you nice, shadow-free lighting. STO-FEN Products

An outstanding lighting source: http://www.strobist.blogspot.com/

As for Ken Rockwell…he seems to rank just below Hitler on many photographers’ popularity chart. A good part of this, I believe, is envy. There is much good information to be found on his site, if you can accept that he does seem to be full of himself. I don’t agree with everything he says – he loves the SB400, for example – but I have learned stuff from him.

Couple of book recommendations: Nikon D70 Digital Field Guide by David Busch and Understanding Exposure by Bryan Peterson.

I’ll post more when I have time.

Have fun!

Jon
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#22
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

A few more things:

I keep a UV filter and a lens hood on virtually all the time. I know it's a belt-and-suspenders approach, but I'd rather put a scratch on, or bump, my filter than my lens.

Working with RAW images need not be scary; it's actually easier in many ways. The only drawback is the huge file sizes. I would advise you to shoot in RAW for the simple intent to get some practice processing it. I shoot JPEG when I'm shooting snap-shotty pictures (family gatherings, etc.); otherwise, always RAW.

One more tip I've learned the hard way: Don't try to crop during the actual shooting. Rather, shoot a bit 'wider' than you need, then crop in post-processing.

Jon
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#23
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_Are
You don’t need a flash bracket; you’ll find it bulky and impractical. Instead, look into a Sto-Fen Omni Bounce. It’s only $20 or so and, coupled with the SB600’s tilt/swivel capabilities, with give you nice, shadow-free lighting. STO-FEN Products

The omnibounce (or similar diffuser) is certainly worth getting for many situations, but it doesn't cut it for all situations where you'd need flash though -- and more so if you go for a lower power flash. Like I mentioned earlier, if one does not want to use a flash bracket, might be good to just learn to hold the flash by hand off the camera for those occasions (and either run a sync cable or use the wireless trigger that comes w/ these DSLRs, since he managed to fix the built-in flash). There are other ways to deal w/ the harsh shadow issue, but it's harder to generalize about those (plus it still won't get rid of the harsh light on the subject, etc.). One way though would be to shoot w/ the background in mind and how the shadow would appear in the shot (or be noticeable at all).

BTW, I haven't tried it myself, but some folks love the Gary Fong(?) Lightsphere diffuser. I thought about getting one at one point, particularly since I think the "dome" that comes w/ the SB800 doesn't diffuse the light quite as much as an omnibounce (which I've used before on a Canon flash).

Quote:
As for Ken Rockwell…he seems to rank just below Hitler on many photographers’ popularity chart. A good part of this, I believe, is envy. There is much good information to be found on his site, if you can accept that he does seem to be full of himself. I don’t agree with everything he says – he loves the SB400, for example – but I have learned stuff from him.

I don't know about "envy", but he is indeed full of it when it comes to his so-called gear "reviews", which he often used to write w/out actually ever touching/seeing the gear at all -- and I'm not sure that's changed any.

I did find a couple bits of useful info on his site (along w/ the fun satirical piece on the "7 levels" ), but his site is generally not worth your while, IMHO -- there are plenty of other better resources.

Quote:
I keep a UV filter and a lens hood on virtually all the time. I know it's a belt-and-suspenders approach, but I'd rather put a scratch on, or bump, my filter than my lens

Actually, I think a virtually straight-on bump is not a real big problem for the front lens element. It's usually the sideways/slanted kind that would cause serious scratching, etc. (and damage to the lens coating) that's the problem. And if you get a particularly strong straight-on bump/crash, I suspect your filter is much more likely to crack than your front lens element (w/out the filter). And if the filter cracks badly, it'll still cause damage to your front lens element (and/or maybe the filter ring, etc).

I heard one anecdote over on dpreview where someone accidentally dismounted his 70-200 f/2.8 VR from the body, and the lens fell headfirst maybe 3ft onto concrete. He had a "protective" filter on it, but had already reversed the hood. The filter cracked and scratched up the front element big time (and messing up the coating, etc). The lens was otherwise still fully functional.

I'm not saying never use a filter for added protection (like at the beach for instance), but it might not be as protective as you think in most regular situations (particularly if the extra comfort leads you to be less careful).

_Man_

Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".

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#24
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Adobe Photoshop Lightroom Tutorials by Michael Tapes

It's for a couple of gens old LR but should give you an idea.

More in depth here:
http://www.photoshopsupport.com/ligh...tutorials.html
http://www.lightroomkillertips.com/
http://www.jkost.com/lightroom.html

I import to LR adding a set of appropriate labels, each import becoming it's own event/folder, use a standard 'profile' on import to give all of my pics a good starting point, then adjust Color Balance, mid tone brightness, and contrast to taste. It's really that easy.

"Sam, you are the biggest nutter we have here."
Blog: Navesink.net - My Flickr Stream is here - Click here to Email me - Updates at Twitter & FriendFeed - Join the HTF Flickr Pool

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#25
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Quote:
it'd also be hard not to 2nd guess yourself about not using a protective filter.


The 14-24 makes that decision easy, no filters allowed! =)

"Sam, you are the biggest nutter we have here."
Blog: Navesink.net - My Flickr Stream is here - Click here to Email me - Updates at Twitter & FriendFeed - Join the HTF Flickr Pool

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#26
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Once again, thanks to all for the input.

Jon, thanks for the tip about the Omni-Bounce. Looks like it's certainly worth 20 bucks. I plan on getting the 600 flash... the 400 wasn't an option for the very reasons you mentioned.

Man, thanks again for your Nikon-specific advice. Do you use your camera's built-in "copyright" coding? I forget what the feature is called, but I read about it in the manual? Know what I mean?

Sam, I'll look into Lightroom for sure!
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#27
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Whalen
Man, thanks again for your Nikon-specific advice. Do you use your camera's built-in "copyright" coding? I forget what the feature is called, but I read about it in the manual? Know what I mean?

Hmmm... Haven't tried anything like that. Took a quick look in my D200's menus, and only see that I can add a brief comment (upto 36-characters long). Not sure exactly where that goes -- maybe in the EXIF I guess.

Anyway, even if you use something like that, it's probably better to also do it as part of the final batch processing. Stuff stored as plain text in EXIF or similar can be easily removed anyway -- and sometimes, do get accidentally removed or ommitted from the results. Your RAW processor of choice (or subsequent editing app) might not be good about passing all such info onto the resulting image file.

I think such comments work mainly as notices, not as actual proof of authenticity or ownership anyway. If one is particularly concerned about proving copyright ownership, I'd suggest never giving out (a copy of) the original image file.

BTW, IIRC, Nikon bodies (at least as early as the D2 series) also stored their serial numbers into the RAW files. But w/out encryption, that could probably be removed easily enough also.

_Man_

Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".

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#28
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

I'll second the recommendation for the Omni-bounce. I use one on my Canon flash, and it works well when needed. I do not do much flash photography, so this solution is enough for my needs.
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#29
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Re: Need Opinions on used dSLR

It's really easy to put a basic shooter info into the menus of a modern nikon, and it's important that you do so if you want that information 'baked in' to the initial raw files or jpegs. I find it's easier for me to have full IPTC information added on import of the files to Lightroom but this does not alter the raw file, it keeps the information in the library only but it DOES bake it in on export to jpegs, which is all I really care about anyway. Since 98%+ of my imagery is released as Creative Commons By, ShareAlike, NoCommercial anyway I'm not particularly concerned about where my babies travel the world too, but it's easy and free to have it put in there from the start so maybe if they find new interesting homes whoever grabs em could find the contact info if needed. If you intend to fully reserve all of your copyrights you probably want to research this more at:
Photo Attorney

She did a good post on this just the other day:
Photo Attorney: Q&A - Where Do I Put My Copyright Notice?

Scott Kelby's recent interview with Ed Greenberg is also a good place to start:
Photoshop Insider Blog By Scott Kelby Blog Archive Catch My Exclusive Interview with Attorney Ed Greenberg for the Straight Scoop on Copyright, Model Releases, and Shooting in Public

"Sam, you are the biggest nutter we have here."
Blog: Navesink.net - My Flickr Stream is here - Click here to Email me - Updates at Twitter & FriendFeed - Join the HTF Flickr Pool

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