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The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

#391
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12/4/08 at 5:01pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
Agreed. The people who will not be buying the Blu-ray are a tiny minority.
Your referring to some members of this forum and not the general populance. right?
Quote:
They're also unlikely to win many converts. They're in the odd position of having to trash a director (with complaints about his "ego" and lack of "professionalism") whose film they apparently love so much that they're devoting hours to complaining online about its treatment on Blu-ray. Most members of the Blu-ray-consuming public don't share that level of passion (or irony).
I suppose I'm just talking about a principle here because I didn't care much for TDK and have no intention of buying it.
What I do object to and will forever speak out against is the practice of some director's, studios, whatever, of only releasing their titles in an altered form different than was was released in the theaters.
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#392
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12/4/08 at 5:10pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
Every 35mm film converted to IMAX goes through digital manipulation, with the exception of digitally originated films. It's called IMAX DMR. If this process imparts EE, it's because it's part of the process to bring 35mm up to snuff so the grain structure isn't the size of dinner plates. Get over it.

Would I have preferred that both versions get released on the BD release? Absolutely, but we are at the whims of both the studio and director. It's not our movie, after all; we are only entitled to own a copy of it prepared according to the director's wishes. Get over it.
Why didn't Nolan use IMAX film for the IMAX segments?
Then he would not have had too go though the manipulation.

From the IMAX web site:
HOW DO YOU MAKE 35MM MEET THE IMAX STANDARD?
The image on a 35mm film frame is comprised of a fine grain structure like that of all photographic images. This grain when projected on to the IMAX screen looks like a TV channel with bad reception. IMAX DMR removes this grain while preserving the quality of the underlying image making what you see on the screen crystal clear.

DIGITALLY RE-MASTERED, REFINED, AND RESIZED!
To create the brightness and clarity that audiences have come to expect from The IMAX Experience®, IMAX uses a proprietary computer program to make the images sharper than they were originally, while colors are adjusted for the unique technically superior characteristics of the IMAX screen.
Moviemaking Technology
--------------------------
If he was so hot on IMAX he should have waited for the digital version or maybe we get that w/the next one...

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#393
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12/4/08 at 5:16pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I'm not sure that "art" and movies really go in the same sentence very often, mainly because art rarely makes money.

Doug
What in the world is the point your trying too make?
That movies aren't art because they make $$$; what about the movies that don't make $$$, are they all art?
Or, it's only art if it doesn't sell at all.
I can't believe any part of what you posted & I can't believe you don't think film is art.

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#394
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12/4/08 at 5:21pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
Your referring to some members of this forum and not the general populance. right?
As I believe was made clear in the next paragraph of my post, I'm referring to the Blu-ray-consuming public.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie108
I suppose I'm just talking about a principle here because I didn't care much for TDK and have no intention of buying it.
What I do object to and will forever speak out against is the practice of some director's, studios, whatever, of only releasing their titles in an altered form different than was was released in the theaters.
That argument stands up a lot better than the "smart business" argument you advanced earlier, especially since you aren't buying the disc anyway.
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#395
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12/4/08 at 7:06pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
What in the world is the point your trying too make?
That movies aren't art because they make $$$; what about the movies that don't make $$$, are they all art?
Or, it's only art if it doesn't sell at all.
I can't believe any part of what you posted & I can't believe you don't think film is art.

Film is an art form just as, for instance, oil painting is an art form. If I give a 4 year old a canvas and a few tubes of oil paint, the result is an oil painting, but very likely not art. By the same token, every movie made is not art. In fact, very few of them are.
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#396
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12/4/08 at 7:26pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert George
If I give a 4 year old a canvas and a few tubes of oil paint, the result is an oil painting, but very likely not art.

By that token, I believe you would find the documentary "My Kid Could Paint That" very interesting.

[/offtopic]

 

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#397
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12/4/08 at 8:37pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
Why didn't Nolan use IMAX film for the IMAX segments?
Then he would not have had too go though the manipulation.
He did. Before the movie was released, IMAX's website was showing a making-of video of Nolan using the big cameras. It's the other two hours which were shot in 35mm and had to be upscaled with IMAX's DMR process.
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#398
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12/4/08 at 9:20pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
What in the world is the point your trying too make?
That movies aren't art because they make $$$; what about the movies that don't make $$$, are they all art?
Or, it's only art if it doesn't sell at all.
I can't believe any part of what you posted & I can't believe you don't think film is art.

(see sig vvv)


Generally no I don't believe most films are even remotely art. They are craft and commerce.

I suppose one could argue that films are "popular art" on the level of illustration for instance, but I don't think anyone could argue that most films, with a few exceptions, reach the level of "serious art".

This is not a critique of movies, but rather of "art" which is for the most part pretentious, self indulgent and more often than not boring. This is of course not the dictionary definition of art, but none the less in my experience, what "serious artists" consider art.

I wouldn't compare TDK with a Jackson Pollock painting for instance, because TDK has structure, discipline and craft, none of which dripping paint onto a canvas can claim. The same is true of most of the films that I have seen that are considered art. Check out Andy Warhol's "Sleep" sometime for a good example. People in the art world just gush over it as a great masterwork. It's 321 mins long and is it a man sleeping in real time. He followed it with "Empire", which is 8 hours long and consists of a shot of the Empire State Building in real time. Again people thought it was brilliant. This is "art" my friends and it's not pretty.

As a filmmaker myself, I don't consider anything that I make is art, it's popular entertainment.

Doug
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#399
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12/4/08 at 10:22pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert George
Film is an art form just as, for instance, oil painting is an art form. If I give a 4 year old a canvas and a few tubes of oil paint, the result is an oil painting, but very likely not art. By the same token, every movie made is not art. In fact, very few of them are.
That's silly...
cause as you say: painting is an art forum & film making is an art forum.
Who are you too than say what is art & what is not?

Of coarse a 1st time painter, especially your four yr old tubest, is not as artistic as a trained professional; nor would a 1st time film maker be, even if it was Steven Spielberg.

Which world class art forums can a be accomplished by a four yr old?
Or, do you consider finger painting too out class film & oil painting?
JJ

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#400
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12/5/08 at 2:53am
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
Who are you too than say what is art & what is not?

As a somewhat serious amateur (still) photographer, I wonder about this matter myself -- not exactly "who", but "what" constitutes "art" (in photography anyway). In fact, I ask this question (more or less) on one of my pbase "galleries" wrt still photography.

Anyway, near as I can tell, it's really pretty much all "in the eye of the beholder". OR perhaps more accurately put, something can be considered "art" if some significant group of people see it as art (even if you or I do not "get it"). Consider that something can probably only be art if it can communicate something meaningful to somebody (as a start) though not necessarily to you or I -- and yes, it may be possible for a 4-yo (prodigy or not) to create art of some sort though I'm not claiming I know of any actual instances.

As for TDK itself (and most other popular films), I more or less agree w/ Doug's assessment about its status as "art" -- it's more craft and commerce than art. Whether one wants to consider it art or not, it's certainly far more entertaining to the masses than most modern things considered "serious art". Let's face it. TDK is first and foremost intended to be popular entertainment, not serious art. That's not to say it isn't actually art, but it's certainly not the same kind as certain kinds normally considered "serious art". And FWIW, much of the art created by so-called serious artists of the past were indeed created for popular entertainment (or similar) as well, so who knows?

_Man_

Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".

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#401
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12/5/08 at 7:46am
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
And FWIW, much of the art created by so-called serious artists of the past were indeed created for popular entertainment (or similar) as well, so who knows?

_Man_

Yes but much that was at one time considered Popular Entertainment has passed from that mantle because it no longer appeals to the general public. I dare say there may come a time when B&W films are only seen in museums.

Of course there was some art that was always intended purely for art's sake. The aforementioned Jackson Pollick. Or Picasso's cubist period. These never truly appealed or were intended to appeal to the public at large.

Doug
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#402
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12/5/08 at 2:04pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD

Thank you Tony. That's what I was looking for. Not bad for a domestic.
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#403
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12/5/08 at 2:50pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

how about a dark ale.

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#404
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12/5/08 at 4:11pm
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Dark Knight feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
As a filmmaker myself, I don't consider anything that I make is art, it's popular entertainment.

Doug
What movies have you made are popular entertainment?
Thanks.

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HD should be for EVERYONE!

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#405
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12/5/08 at 4:34pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
But in this case it begs the question, what is the OAR? We are talking about a film that was presented in theaters in at least 2 different aspect ratios, and now seems to be being presented in a 3rd on blu-ray.

The idea of OAR really doesn't seem to apply to this particular film.

Doug
I've already answered that...
butt posts after don't seem too get it; so I'll answer yours:
The BD is the IMAX release
&
The SD DVD is the theatrical release.
So OAR does apply too this film depending on the type of theater or HT format you watch it.
-------------------------------------

For the SD DVD, in relation too smaller screens being more the norm (hope I'm not offending any SD DVD people), would it not have been better too have the IMAX version?
Couldn't the SD DVD be anamorphic for the widescreen presentation & full frame (non-anamorphic), which would actually look MORE impressive on smaller screens, for the IMAX footage.
If not... nevermind!
(can't see [p.i.] why not; as SD DVD menus can be full frame w/the movie anamorphic)

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#406
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12/5/08 at 5:10pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

The players themselves might have a little trouble switching between anamorphic and non-anamorphic on the fly, and then there's the issue that a non-trivial number of them may be playing on 16x9 screens (many people with HDTVs don't necessarily have them hooked up to an HD source). Also, this is something of a guess, but I'm guessing widescreen-to-fullscreen has a different impact on the brain than widescreen-to-less-widescreen.
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#407
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12/5/08 at 6:02pm
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Re: Dark Knight feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
What movies have you made are popular entertainment?
Thanks.


That I have directed myself, likely none, as they have all been shorts with limited film festival exposure. With any luck that situation may change in the next few months.

Doug
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#408
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12/5/08 at 6:07pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
I've already answered that...
butt posts after don't seem too get it; so I'll answer yours:
The BD is the IMAX release
&
The SD DVD is the theatrical release.
So OAR does apply too this film depending on the type of theater or HT format you watch it.
-------------------------------------

For the SD DVD, in relation too smaller screens being more the norm (hope I'm not offending any SD DVD people), would it not have been better too have the IMAX version?
Couldn't the SD DVD be anamorphic for the widescreen presentation & full frame (non-anamorphic), which would actually look MORE impressive on smaller screens, for the IMAX footage.
If not... nevermind!
(can't see [p.i.] why not; as SD DVD menus can be full frame w/the movie anamorphic)


I think the point that I and some others here have been trying to make is that with this film, and likely with many future films, the theatrical ratio may not be the actual intended ratio.

We are at a point where more people see these films at home that will ever see them in the theater. The theatrical presentation may become less and less relevant, as much as we may find that to be a distasteful reality.

As I said before, I'm not particularly thrilled with the idea of changing aspect ratios, as I find it to be gimmicky, but that is not my choice to make.

Doug
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#409
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12/5/08 at 6:12pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
(can't see [p.i.] why not; as SD DVD menus can be full frame w/the movie anamorphic)

On a DVD when you have a full frame menu with an anamorphic main movie, it is more often than not actually an anamorphic menu also. Its just that the player is told to crop the menu a 4x3 and important information is kept into that 4x3 area.

Anamorphic and non-anamorphic information can be put on the same DVD, but switching back and forth between them is not at all seamless and would not be practical in the middle of a film.


Doug
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#410
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12/5/08 at 8:16pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I think the point that I and some others here have been trying to make is that with this film, and likely with many future films, the theatrical ratio may not be the actual intended ratio.

We are at a point where more people see these films at home that will ever see them in the theater. The theatrical presentation may become less and less relevant, as much as we may find that to be a distasteful reality.

As I said before, I'm not particularly thrilled with the idea of changing aspect ratios, as I find it to be gimmicky, but that is not my choice to make.

Doug

So what are you saying? That we can expect 2.35:1 theatrical releases to be cropped or P&S'd to fit a 1.78:1 frame for home video, because the majority of people are seeing these films for the first time on TV screens?

Enthusiasts fought for OAR presentations and now basically those same people will just acquiesce to the return of P&S for 16:9 TV sets?

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#411
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12/5/08 at 8:56pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S

Enthusiasts fought for OAR presentations and now basically those same people will just acquiesce to the return of P&S for 16:9 TV sets?
Apparently. As we see here, most people are quite satisfied to have the film presented in a new AR especially for them.
And while I understand now why 1.44 + 2.40 won't work, as Edwin says the shifting AR would serve standard def viewers better than HD viewers because it would maximize the real estate in regards to lower resolution- just like they are the ones who would have benefitted more from smileboxing on HTWWW. In both cases Bd gets the novelty release, not due to neccessity, but due to marketing. Bds need compelling exclusive features to ever get a toe hold.
Just spare me that only Bd will do justice to the difference in Imax and 35mm res. These seem to be the same people who don't seem to be bothered greatly that the majority of the film has been degraded (by whatever %) by DRM. But I'm supposed to then buy their argument that only Bd will show me how special the Imax footage is? Please.
Here's a thought- maybe if we had gotten an optimal transfer of the 35mm footage, there might actually be an insignificant difference in percieved resolution between them after they are both down converted to HD res. Nothing like stacking the deck to prove a point.
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#412
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12/5/08 at 8:56pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
So what are you saying? That we can expect 2.35:1 theatrical releases to be cropped or P&S'd to fit a 1.78:1 frame for home video, because the majority of people are seeing these films for the first time on TV screens?

Enthusiasts fought for OAR presentations and now basically those same people will just acquiesce to the return of P&S for 16:9 TV sets?

No I'm saying that in some cases the theatrical presentation may not be the preferred ratio or perhaps even the preferred version. Case in point, Speed Racer where it was claimed by the film makers that the colors couldn't be accurately reproduced on film in the theater, and the best way to see the film was on HD.

Particularly when films are shot digitally, the director probably sees it on a flat panel screen far more than he does projected in a theater, if he sees it that way at all before the release. He may decide that in spite of the fact that the film was intended for theaters at 2.35:1 or even 1.85:1, he prefers the way it looks at 1.78:1.

With digital film making there are so many options, and changes can be made so easily, don't be surprised if there is not one ultimate version of a film. It maybe in the future that films are not set in stone, and audiences may not expect them to be.


Doug
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#413
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12/5/08 at 9:00pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_Scott
Just spare me that only Bd will do justice to the difference in Imax and 35mm res. These seem to be the same people who don't seem to be bothered greatly that the majority of the film has been degraded (by whatever %) by DRM. But I'm supposed to then buy their argument that only Bd will show me how special the Imax footage is? Please.
Here's a thought- maybe if we had gotten an optimal transfer of the 35mm footage, there might actually be an insignificant difference in percieved resolution between them after they are both down converted to HD res. Nothing like stacking the deck to prove a point.


Are we sure that the 35mm footage doesn't come directly from the 35mm negative?

BD doesn't have enough resolution to be able to tell the difference between the 35mm footage and the IMAX footage in terms of detail.

Doug
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12/5/08 at 9:11pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Are we sure that the 35mm footage doesn't come directly from the 35mm negative?

BD doesn't have enough resolution to be able to tell the difference between the 35mm footage and the IMAX footage in terms of detail.

Doug

And yet the IMAX footage looks so much better. Either that's a reflection of those scenes having been shot in IMAX, or something went terribly wrong with the 35mm footage.

Vincent
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#415
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12/5/08 at 9:19pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent_P
And yet the IMAX footage looks so much better. Either that's a reflection of those scenes having been shot in IMAX, or something went terribly wrong with the 35mm footage.

Vincent


And we know this how? From screen shots? This film doesn't come out till Tuesday. Maybe we should wait till then to make judgements like that. Frankly I never heard anyone compain about edge enhancement when it was in the IMAX theaters, and if they didn't see it there, they sure as hell aren't going to see it at home. Sounds to me like people are pixal counting again.

Doug
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#416
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12/5/08 at 9:36pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
And we know this how? From screen shots? This film doesn't come out till Tuesday. Maybe we should wait till then to make judgements like that. Frankly I never heard anyone compain about edge enhancement when it was in the IMAX theaters, and if they didn't see it there, they sure as hell aren't going to see it at home. Sounds to me like people are pixal counting again.

Doug

Doug-

As I'm sure you are aware, some stores break street date. I've watched THE DARK KNIGHT twice on Blu-ray so far on my projection system. I also viewed it theatrically in 35mm, and also in IMAX in New York City at the 68th Street theater, which is where I believe they also held the NYC premiere of THE DARK KNIGHT. The IMAX presentation was amazing. I did notice the occasional halo during the 35mm footage in IMAX, but the overall presentation was so enveloping and amazing that it didn't bother me.

On Blu-ray, the IMAX scenes look great. The 35mm stuff... well, it looks decent, but not nearly as good as say the Blu-ray of THE INCREDIBLE HULK, a recent movie filmed in 35mm anamorphic (like the 35mm sections of THE DARK KNIGHT), or the Blu-ray of TROPIC THUNDER, a recent Super-35 film. There's a definite, digitally processed, unnatural edgy look to the 35mm anamorphic footage on THE DARK KNIGHT Blu-ray which is absent from other recent 35mm-filmed Blu-ray movies I've viewed, like the two I've mentioned. This is not based on "screen caps", it's based on me watching these movies on Blu-ray.

Is THE DARK KNIGHT on Blu-ray as bad as GANGS OF NEW YORK?

Heavens, no.

Is THE DARK KNIGHT on Blu-ray a 'disaster'?

Heavens, no.

But it most certainly is not 'reference' either, except for the IMAX material which is stunning. The 35mm material (which comprises the bulk of the film) definitely has a processed, edgy look, which is absent from other recent 35mm filmed 'blockbusters' I've viewed on Blu-ray. I simply see no reason why the 35mm portions of THE DARK KNIGHT should look edgy and unnatural when other recent 35mm films- even ones that went through Digital Intermediates- look natural, analog, and film-like.

Vincent
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#417
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12/5/08 at 9:41pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

there has been a number of people who have seen the blu already.
WHV shipped out copies weeks ago to those who ordred through their site.

i received a copy last week, work at a video store.

the imax footage looks fine to me.
i id see a slight ringing but nothing that is botheresome
or ruins the movie.
probably wouldnt even have seen it if i didnt read any of this.

ps3 -> 3803 -> mits 73"
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#418
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12/5/08 at 11:11pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

The issues with edge enhancements and halos is greatly exaggerated. Are they there? Yes. Are you likely to see them at a normal viewing distance? No.
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#419
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12/5/08 at 11:32pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
The issues with edge enhancements and halos is greatly exaggerated. Are they there? Yes. Are you likely to see them at a normal viewing distance? No.

Agreed. The whole EE "issue" is being blown WAY out of proportion on a certain forum.
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#420
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12/6/08 at 2:52am
  • Joined: July 2002
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

The EE and halos are not neccessarily the problem- they are the symptoms of the problem which is that the bulk of the film has been needlessly and deteriously manipulated. The extent to which manipulation of this level is going to be bothersome is likely proportional to the enthusiasm one has for the shifting AR. The people with CH set ups will likely be the ones viewing this on the largest home screens and with the narrowest of viewing angles. I doubt many with a fixed width display (any rear view or flat screen) will be using a greater than 60" (diagonal) size screen, and likely a wider viewing angle than 1.5 screen widths. Because of the circumstances, these people are not likely to be overly bothered by the processing and are more likely to appreciate seeing the screen fill up with more live picture periodically. I know I would be thrilled at that prospect if I was forced to see lbx bars with ever 2.40:1 title I spun.
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