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The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

#181
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11/27/08 at 11:58am
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
Some of you keep saying that Nolan is saying the IMAX version is superior when all I see is someone saying that it is different or provides a different experience when seen in that format. I don't see him saying that one is inferior to the other, just that each version will give a different experience. How about actually finding some quotes where Nolan comes right out and says that the scope version is inferior and post those. Oh, that's right, I'll bet you won't be able to find any.

"There's simply nothing like seeing a movie that way," Nolan says. "It's more immersive for the audience. I wish I could shoot the entire thing this way."

First look: Enter the Joker in the IMAX format - USATODAY.com

'Nolan and Thomas both brought up the anticipated Blu-ray version and its capabilities. Nolan summed it up by saying, "The Blu-ray, in particular, will be able to actually use the shifted aspect ratios as it appears on the IMAX screen because the 16:9 aspect ratio is sufficiently different from the 2:4 that you'll actually see a shift on the Blu-ray. The resolution on the Blu-ray is clear enough that you can actually see difference in grain structure and sharpness. So I think it will be quite spectacular."'

iFMagazine.com: Breaking News: 'DARK KNIGHT' DIRECTOR AND PRODUCER DISCUSS EXPECTED DVD FEATURES

It's a different experience he obviously prefers. He doesn't need to say the scope version is inferior in his view. He's already done that by not putting it on the BD.
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#182
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11/27/08 at 12:02pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_Scott
Except as has been pointed out, 1.78 is a modified AR . The people that are arguing to respect the directors 'vision' here would likely be VERY disappointed (and vocal) if the Imax shots were presented in their true AR and they had to go back and forth from letterbox to pillarbox. Let's hear them defend Nolans 'preferred vision' then .
The intended experience of the film is the point. Aspect ratios are simply a means to an end. If the AR for IMAX were to cripple the intended experience of the home video presentation, the only logical conclusion is to present them at 1.78:1 to preserve the intended experience.

Intended experience of the film >>>>>> aspect ratios. Nolan, thankfully, understands this.
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#183
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11/27/08 at 1:55pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote taken from "Enter The Joker in the IMAX format":

Quote:
For Nolan, IMAX makes the moviegoing experience unique again.
"You can't do this on any home theater," Nolan says. "Batman has some of the most extraordinary characters in pop culture. We wanted the Joker to have the grandest entrance possible.

Yet, that is precisely what he is trying to do by enforcing an IMAX version only BD release. Either BD, as a home video format, can replicate the intended experience or it can't. He supposedly plans this BD release well in advance yet states that home video can't replicate the experience. Bravo! What outstanding logic for providing only a version that is incapable of producing the intended effect.

At least with the scope version I would have known that I was getting what I experienced in the theatre.

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#184
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11/27/08 at 2:39pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Not all IMAX theaters are created equal, so Cameron's take is based on one of many different theaters, some better than others.

I saw TDK IMAX at the downtown Toronto, Canada 'Scotiabank Theatre'.

I have only seen two films there, This one and the first-ever DMR processed "Apollo 13: The IMAX Experience".

This theater is incredible, and the screen is one massive flat (not curved) square. The only way to take the whole thing in without missing anything is to sit at the very last top row. I live in a 5-floor apartment building, and this screen would in my estimation amount to about maybe 7 or 8 floors.

Remember the good old days when you would watch scope movies on your old 4:3 TVs?

If so, picture that but then every once in a while the top and bottom black borders disappear, leaving you with the same image full screen. Multiply that by about who-the-hell-knows in sheer size and you've got the true IMAX experience of The Dark Knight. The AR changes were not subtle or gimmicky at all. They were truly spectacular.
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#185
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11/27/08 at 3:25pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin
If so, picture that but then every once in a while the top and bottom black borders disappear, leaving you with the same image full screen. Multiply that by about who-the-hell-knows in sheer size and you've got the true IMAX experience of The Dark Knight. The AR changes were not subtle or gimmicky at all. They were truly spectacular.

Nobody is denying your observation. On a full-blown IMAX screen the AR changes would be spectacular. If I lived in a place like Toronto I would have gone to see this film on a true IMAX screen.

What Cameron Yee's observation confirms to me is that on anything less than a true IMAX screen the director's intent is lost. It can't even be recreated on an IMAX-lite screen which is probably bigger than your average theatre screen. If the director's intent needs a giant IMAX screen to be noticed then enforcing an IMAX lite version on BD makes no sense, because the director's intent is completely lost. The differences between the scope version and the IMAX lite version amounts to a few mattes disappearing at random times. For me, that is a curiousity, but for steady home viewing I would like to be able to select a version with a fixed AR.

How hard would it have been for them to put the standard theatrical release on this BD and let the consumer choose how they wanted to view this film? A lot of people keep going on about the director's intent, as if the film he makes is his personal property. Well, I'm sorry to say but I don't believe it is. It is the director's property up to the point where he releases it for public viewing. After that point, in a non-monetary sense, the viewing public gains an ownership stake along with the director. The director, AFAIAC, loses any right to enforce what version a person watches. He can modify and re-release, but he has no right to demand the suppression of earlier or different versions. Telling consumers what they can and cannot see just smacks of arrogance.

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#186
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11/27/08 at 4:04pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
I have made my points and stand by all of them 100%, especially having first hand experience with the BR which most of you guys who are arguing this haven't which is very interesting to me.

If you are referring to me, if you had taken the time to read my posts earlier in this thread, you would have seen that I not only have seen the 1080p transfer of the IMAX version from Blu-ray, but also a constant matted 2.40:1 version from the same source. I have compared the IMAX shots back and forth between the two versions. I also happen to have a first tier IMAX theater in my area and have seen many IMAX films there, though this theater does not show mainstream films, only science or aviation related. The point is, I know the "IMAX experience" very well. When I say the IMAX version of TDK on Blu-ray loses the IMAX effect, even on a large home theater screen, I'm not making shit up.

Now, you can stand by your points till the cows come home but your contention that ONLY the IMAX version is the correct version is just plain wrong.
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#187
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11/27/08 at 4:15pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin
Not all IMAX theaters are created equal, so Cameron's take is based on one of many different theaters, some better than others.

I saw TDK IMAX at the downtown Toronto, Canada 'Scotiabank Theatre'.

I have only seen two films there, This one and the first-ever DMR processed "Apollo 13: The IMAX Experience".

This theater is incredible, and the screen is one massive flat (not curved) square. The only way to take the whole thing in without missing anything is to sit at the very last top row. I live in a 5-floor apartment building, and this screen would in my estimation amount to about maybe 7 or 8 floors.

Remember the good old days when you would watch scope movies on your old 4:3 TVs?

If so, picture that but then every once in a while the top and bottom black borders disappear, leaving you with the same image full screen. Multiply that by about who-the-hell-knows in sheer size and you've got the true IMAX experience of The Dark Knight. The AR changes were not subtle or gimmicky at all. They were truly spectacular.


All Imax screens are flat (more or less) and I've never seen one where you could sit far enough back to be able to see the whole screen at once. The standard Imax screen is 72 feet wide by 53 feet high, however they can be larger than that.

It's Omnimax, or Imax Dome that has a curved or domed screen.

Doug
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#188
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11/27/08 at 4:47pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

I wish I could find specs for the IMAX theater I went to, which is one screen in an 18-plex. The screen was pretty close to 1.78:1 and you could definitely see the whole thing from the first row of the stadium section.

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#189
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11/27/08 at 4:57pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron Yee

So ultimately I was a little underwhelmed by the visual component and was kind of scratching my head over what was really IMAX about the experience. The audio system of the theater actually left a bigger impression on me.

So those who are saying the IMAX effect is lost on BD...well, I would say there was not much of one to begin with, at least based on what many associate as "IMAX."

I respectfully disagree. I saw this twice in the same day. First around 12pm in IMAX, which, to me, was just breathtaking. I definitely felt immersed in the experience, largely due to IMAX. Later, I saw it in the evening at my local theatre, because I was so excited at what I saw earlier. Well, while the movie was still great, it was nothing at all like what I saw, felt, or heard at the first showing in IMAX.

I have seen several movies in IMAX, Batman Beging being one of them, and even with that I did not get the feeling I got when I watched The Dark Knight. The best way I can describe it is being smothered, but in a good way if you can picture that. The movie was all over me. I was enveloped in the movie, because of the IMAX experience, especially on the ascpet ratio changing scenes. At one point you know you are watching a movie, and then the next you feel like you are inside it. It was like nothing I ever felt watching a movie before. I am definitely going to see it again in IMAX in January when it's re-released, even though I will have had the blu-ray for a month and watched it several times.

I am hoping that the blu-ray can give me a semblance of what I experienced in IMAX. I know it won't be anywhere near the same, but hopefully the aspect changing scenes on the blu-ray will at least jump out and try to grab me.
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#190
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11/27/08 at 5:05pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
Well, I'm sorry to say but I don't believe it is. It is the director's property up to the point where he releases it for public viewing. After that point, in a non-monetary sense, the viewing public gains an ownership stake along with the director. The director, AFAIAC, loses any right to enforce what version a person watches. He can modify and re-release, but he has no right to demand the suppression of earlier or different versions. Telling consumers what they can and cannot see just smacks of arrogance.

Yikes.. sounds like the creation of Pan & Scan.
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#191
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11/27/08 at 5:05pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Peter, did you go to an IMAX theater like Nicholas Martin went to in Toronto or was your's like the one I went to?

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#192
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11/27/08 at 5:15pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
All Imax screens are flat (more or less) and I've never seen one where you could sit far enough back to be able to see the whole screen at once. The standard Imax screen is 72 feet wide by 53 feet high, however they can be larger than that.

It's Omnimax, or Imax Dome that has a curved or domed screen.

Doug

I've been to the Omnimax theater at the Ontario Science Centre once, which doesn't show anything that isn't made to fit that domed screen.

I recall many different takes on the TDK IMAX viewing based on curved screens, small screens and so on in some of the various threads created here during the film's theatrical run.
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#193
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11/27/08 at 5:43pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin
I've been to the Omnimax theater at the Ontario Science Centre once, which doesn't show anything that isn't made to fit that domed screen.


I saw TDK on an Omnimax screen. It was a fucking joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
A lot of people keep going on about the director's intent, as if the film he makes is his personal property. Well, I'm sorry to say but I don't believe it is. It is the director's property up to the point where he releases it for public viewing. After that point, in a non-monetary sense, the viewing public gains an ownership stake along with the director. The director, AFAIAC, loses any right to enforce what version a person watches. He can modify and re-release, but he has no right to demand the suppression of earlier or different versions. Telling consumers what they can and cannot see just smacks of arrogance.

You're just going to have to get used to the fact that these days the individual home video release is just as much a valid venue for a film as the cinema. It's about presenting the ART as best as possible, not "recreating the theatrical experience."

"Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now... and so we'll hunt him... because he can take it... because he's not a hero... he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector... a DARK KNIGHT."

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#194
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11/27/08 at 7:21pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert George
If you are referring to me, if you had taken the time to read my posts earlier in this thread, you would have seen that I not only have seen the 1080p transfer of the IMAX version from Blu-ray, but also a constant matted 2.40:1 version from the same source. I have compared the IMAX shots back and forth between the two versions. I also happen to have a first tier IMAX theater in my area and have seen many IMAX films there, though this theater does not show mainstream films, only science or aviation related. The point is, I know the "IMAX experience" very well. When I say the IMAX version of TDK on Blu-ray loses the IMAX effect, even on a large home theater screen, I'm not making shit up.

Now, you can stand by your points till the cows come home but your contention that ONLY the IMAX version is the correct version is just plain wrong.


Was I refering to you? I dont think I pointed you out did I.

I dont think you are "making shit up", I just dont agree with you and I think you are stuborn to the directors intent.

NO, my contention that only the IMAX version is the correct version is not plain wrong the way I perceive Nolans comments. It is not just plain wrong, and I personaly feel that YOU are just plain wrong, but as I said we are running in circles and lets just agree to disagree. Happy Thanksgiving.
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#195
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11/27/08 at 7:24pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Raber
I respectfully disagree. I saw this twice in the same day. First around 12pm in IMAX, which, to me, was just breathtaking. I definitely felt immersed in the experience, largely due to IMAX. Later, I saw it in the evening at my local theatre, because I was so excited at what I saw earlier. Well, while the movie was still great, it was nothing at all like what I saw, felt, or heard at the first showing in IMAX.

I have seen several movies in IMAX, Batman Beging being one of them, and even with that I did not get the feeling I got when I watched The Dark Knight. The best way I can describe it is being smothered, but in a good way if you can picture that. The movie was all over me. I was enveloped in the movie, because of the IMAX experience, especially on the ascpet ratio changing scenes. At one point you know you are watching a movie, and then the next you feel like you are inside it. It was like nothing I ever felt watching a movie before. I am definitely going to see it again in IMAX in January when it's re-released, even though I will have had the blu-ray for a month and watched it several times.

I am hoping that the blu-ray can give me a semblance of what I experienced in IMAX. I know it won't be anywhere near the same, but hopefully the aspect changing scenes on the blu-ray will at least jump out and try to grab me.

Exactly, and this is what Nolan is trying to get across. The BR presentation is the absolute closest we will get to this vision and anyone who cares about seeing this film as closely as possible to the way it is meant to be seen will be watching the BR version
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#196
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11/27/08 at 9:36pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
Quote taken from "Enter The Joker in the IMAX format":



Yet, that is precisely what he is trying to do by enforcing an IMAX version only BD release. Either BD, as a home video format, can replicate the intended experience or it can't. He supposedly plans this BD release well in advance yet states that home video can't replicate the experience. Bravo! What outstanding logic for providing only a version that is incapable of producing the intended effect.

At least with the scope version I would have known that I was getting what I experienced in the theatre.
Bullocks. The scope version on any home theater setup, even in HD, would be an inferior experience to projected 35mm film.

Of course IMAX can't be replicated for the exact same experience in the home - it's freaking IMAX. However, the closest thing to it on a video based home theater setup is the Blu-ray presentation. That's the point Nolan is making by the way he's designed this release.

So, unless you plan on buying a 35mm projector and a large house that can fit a theater, I recommend never watching The Dark Knight on any home video format, because otherwise it'll never be the experience you had in the theater.
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#197
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11/27/08 at 9:39pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidPla
Yikes.. sounds like the creation of Pan & Scan.

I should clarify that I was talking in the theatrical sense as in theatrically released versions. If it was released theatrically then it should be available on home video. Directors should not be suppressing earlier, theatrically released, versions of their films. Please, don't try to make it sound like I'm supporting or advocating Pan and Scanning of movies.

However, on that note, I guess there a few people in this thread that would support the release of a P&S only version of a film if a delusional director suddenly decided that that was the only way he wanted his film presented. Right?

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#198
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11/27/08 at 9:43pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
However, on that note, I guess there a few people in this thread that would support the release of a P&S only version of a film if a delusional director suddenly decided that that was the only way he wanted his film presented. Right?
You mean like Soderbergh demanding that The Good German be presented on home video as 1.33:1 instead of the theatrical 1.85:1? You're damn right. (In this case it was open matte I believe, but the framing is still "full screen").
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#199
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11/27/08 at 9:55pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
Bullocks. The scope version on any home theater setup, even in HD, would be an inferior experience to projected 35mm film.

Of course IMAX can't be replicated for the exact same experience in the home - it's freaking IMAX. However, the closest thing to it on a video based home theater setup is the Blu-ray presentation. That's the point Nolan is making by the way he's designed this release.

So, unless you plan on buying a 35mm projector and a large house that can fit a theater, I recommend never watching The Dark Knight on any home video format, because otherwise it'll never be the experience you had in the theater.

You are right, A home video version of a 35mm film is not going to be exactly the same as the theatrical version, but it is a f$%^ of a lot closer than a home video version of an IMAX film. I'm not advocating that you guys shouldn't be able to watch a reproduction of an IMAX film, so why are some of you guys advocating that I shouldn't be able to watch a version of the film that I saw in the theatre?

My argument is that both versions should be on there so that people have the right to choose their preferred version, whether that be Nolan's preference or otherwise.

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#200
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11/27/08 at 9:57pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Yes, that would be ideal. But sometimes you don't have the option. When that happens it's better to have the filmmaker's version if it is gonna be just one. That's all I'm really saying when it comes down to it. For decades on home video we usually only got one version, and it wasn't the filmmaker's preference. I don't like looking a gift horse in the mouth.
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#201
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11/27/08 at 10:06pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
You mean like Soderbergh demanding that The Good German be presented on home video as 1.33:1 instead of the theatrical 1.85:1? You're damn right. (In this case it was open matte I believe, but the framing is still "full screen").

Yeah, but if he was so concerned then why didn't he stipulate that the film only be shown in Academy ratio in the theatre? Because he figured that modern theatre patrons wouldn't want to watch a film in that ratio theatrically? If it mattered so much to him then he should have demanded that the film be shown unmatted in the theatre. Unmatted is no good for a theatrical distribution but perfectly okay for home video distribution? What a bloody hypocrite.

Your example is exactly why directors shouldn't be able to suppress earlier released versions.

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#202
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11/27/08 at 10:19pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Because the studio, who paid for the production, wouldn't let him release it theatrically the way he wanted to, but was willing to give him the intended ratio on home video. That's called business. Sometimes it frustrates artistic intent.

Darabont wanted to release The Mist theatrically as a black and white film but the studio wouldn't let him. He was able to get the studio to release it on the DVD as a "bonus". It's obvious that Darabont would rather people watch the black and white version, but until the studio could see the business angle to it ("exclusive to DVD!") they wouldn't touch it. Same thing.

There are countless examples of this: the butchered theatrical version of Kingdom of Heaven; the attempt to recut Brazil in the US; the censored version of Eyes Wide Shut.

Warner has been rather generous to Nolan, allowing him to have final say on the BD release. I consider that no small victory for those who wish to see the creative people with final cut and not the businessmen. Of course, Warner has been playing up every marketing angle they can to sell it. Fortunately for Nolan, it's his preference they are advertising.
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#203
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11/27/08 at 11:08pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
You mean like Soderbergh demanding that The Good German be presented on home video as 1.33:1 instead of the theatrical 1.85:1? You're damn right. (In this case it was open matte I believe, but the framing is still "full screen").

When I saw The Good German in the theater it was pillerboxed at 1.37:1 for presentation on a 1.85:1 screen. The actual image area was NOT 1.85:1.

Doug
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#204
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11/27/08 at 11:16pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
Yeah, but if he was so concerned then why didn't he stipulate that the film only be shown in Academy ratio in the theatre? Because he figured that modern theatre patrons wouldn't want to watch a film in that ratio theatrically? If it mattered so much to him then he should have demanded that the film be shown unmatted in the theatre. Unmatted is no good for a theatrical distribution but perfectly okay for home video distribution? What a bloody hypocrite.

Your example is exactly why directors shouldn't be able to suppress earlier released versions.

99% of theaters can't show Academy Ratio films. 35mm prints of The Good German were actually hard-matted 1.66:1, with image reduction so that the 1.66:1 image rested within the 1.85:1 framing area. A compromise within the constraints of the format. When it came out on DVD, it wasn't an issue to present it 4x3.

I think HT enthusiasts just need to trust filmmakers on how home presentations should be. Yes, even Storaro and Lucas.

Tell The Weinstein Company to release Richard Williams' animated masterpiece The Thief and the Cobbler on DVD in Panavision widescreen and uncut! See and hear what you're missing from their Bitsy Award winner of Worst Standard Edition DVD of 2006 on YouTube!
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#205
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11/27/08 at 11:24pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
A lot of people keep going on about the director's intent, as if the film he makes is his personal property. Well, I'm sorry to say but I don't believe it is. It is the director's property up to the point where he releases it for public viewing. After that point, in a non-monetary sense, the viewing public gains an ownership stake along with the director. The director, AFAIAC, loses any right to enforce what version a person watches. He can modify and re-release, but he has no right to demand the suppression of earlier or different versions. Telling consumers what they can and cannot see just smacks of arrogance.

In some cases, for instance in the case of George Lucas and Star Wars, it is his personal property, and he can do with it what he wants.

In the case of Batman it is the property of DC and Warner. At the moment Nolan has enough clout that he can tell Warner what he wants and that's what he will get.

Most films are the property of a corporation. They are NOT the property of the public, at least for 100 years, and likely beyond that, and the public has nothing whatever to say about it. Beyond of course talking with your pocket book.

I'm sorry to say, but the public no right to demand anything, other than to buy or not to buy. I suspect that the number of people that this is going to effect, and who will be concerned about it is so small that it won't even be a blip on Warner's radar.

Personally the film its self doesn't interest me. I hadn't planned to buy it regardless, as its not a film that I would watch more than once or twice. I don't particularly like the idea of shifting aspect ratios because frankly, I find it to be gimmicky and it pulls me out of the story. However this is Nolan, and Warner's choice to make. I find the sense of entitlement on the part of film fans to be kind of ridiculous.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#206
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11/27/08 at 11:25pm
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
Because the studio, who paid for the production, wouldn't let him release it theatrically the way he wanted to, but was willing to give him the intended ratio on home video. That's called business. Sometimes it frustrates artistic intent.

Okay. In light of this I need to eat crow and take back the "bloody hypocrite" comment. However, judging by your words I wouldn't say that he was ever in a position to "demand" anything. Be that as it may, I'm glad he was able to get his version on DVD, but the theatrical version should still have been on there as well.

Quote:
Darabont wanted to release The Mist theatrically as a black and white film but the studio wouldn't let him. He was able to get the studio to release it on the DVD as a "bonus". It's obvious that Darabont would rather people watch the black and white version, but until the studio could see the business angle to it ("exclusive to DVD!") they wouldn't touch it. Same thing.

Regardless of Darabont's wants, people should be allowed to choose. I can see the studio's point in not allowing a B&W theatrical release. They probably would have lost their shirts; however, on DVD, Darabont got what he wanted: a B&W release. Both versions are equally valid and both versions should be on there. People can then decide for themselves which version they prefer: the director's version or the studio mandated one.

Quote:
There are countless examples of this: the butchered theatrical version of Kingdom of Heaven; the attempt to recut Brazil in the US; the censored version of Eyes Wide Shut.

Well, I know I'll probably be dumped on for this, but I still believe that even these compromised releases should be on any proper DVD or BD release. Even if it is only for comparative purposes. There are probably people who prefer the theatrical cut of KoH (not me) so why should they not be able to see it. I haven't seen Brazil or Eyes Wide Shut in any form so I cannot comment on those films.

Quote:
Warner has been rather generous to Nolan, allowing him to have final say on the BD release. I consider that no small victory for those who wish to see the creative people with final cut and not the businessmen. Of course, Warner has been playing up every marketing angle they can to sell it. Fortunately for Nolan, it's his preference they are advertising.

Yes, and I'm not contesting anything stated in your paragraph, but Nolan still doesn't have the right to dictate to me, as a consumer, the theatrical format for experiencing this film. All he has the right to say is I prefer that this version be watched and then let me decide for myself.

When you have to shoot...shoot. Don't talk!

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#207
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11/28/08 at 2:16am
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
A lot of people keep going on about the director's intent, as if the film he makes is his personal property. Well, I'm sorry to say but I don't believe it is. It is the director's property up to the point where he releases it for public viewing. After that point, in a non-monetary sense, the viewing public gains an ownership stake along with the director. The director, AFAIAC, loses any right to enforce what version a person watches. He can modify and re-release, but he has no right to demand the suppression of earlier or different versions. Telling consumers what they can and cannot see just smacks of arrogance.
Basically, I agree.

But of course you need to make the distinction between legal rights and moral (cultural) rights.

The Parisian and French governments have the legal right to take down the Eiffel Tower, or paint it pink. But morally, in my opinion, many happy visitors of that city, both from France or outside, and lovers of the French culture should have a say in that.

Likewise, once a work of art has been "published" and people were allowed to be touched by it, possibly even making a change to their essence, then even the creator(s) no longer own the moral and/or cultural right to damage (change) it. Let alone destroy it.

The creator can create a new version, but the one you and I may have started to love and cherish, or to despise and hate, or anything in between, should always be left intact and accessible.

In my opinion.


About the topic of this thread: I have no specific opinion about the original intent of Nolan as how he created this film to be shown in the theatre. I get the impression, though, that he created a new work of art for the BD version. Apparently he tried to stay as close as he believed he could, to his "IMAX version".

Now totally apart from that discussion: anyone may either like this work of art or not. That has nothing to do, IMO, with the fact of whether it was or wasn't presented like the director intended.

Striving for representations of the work like the creator intended is one of the artistic goals of this forum. But actually liking the result is a different matter.

There are paintings of Picasso that I like, there are also paintings of him I dislike. I'm sure both are shown almost exactly as the creator of those works intended.


Cees
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#208
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11/28/08 at 2:37am
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
In some cases, for instance in the case of George Lucas and Star Wars, it is his personal property, and he can do with it what he wants.

In the case of Batman it is the property of DC and Warner. At the moment Nolan has enough clout that he can tell Warner what he wants and that's what he will get.

Most films are the property of a corporation. They are NOT the property of the public, at least for 100 years, and likely beyond that, and the public has nothing whatever to say about it. Beyond of course talking with your pocket book.

I'm sorry to say, but the public no right to demand anything, other than to buy or not to buy. I suspect that the number of people that this is going to effect, and who will be concerned about it is so small that it won't even be a blip on Warner's radar.

Personally the film its self doesn't interest me. I hadn't planned to buy it regardless, as its not a film that I would watch more than once or twice. I don't particularly like the idea of shifting aspect ratios because frankly, I find it to be gimmicky and it pulls me out of the story. However this is Nolan, and Warner's choice to make. I find the sense of entitlement on the part of film fans to be kind of ridiculous.

Doug
Yes, I disagree with Edwin's POV too with my opinion more aligned to what you stated here.






Crawdaddy
G.W. McLintock: Camille, you're on your own.
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#209
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11/28/08 at 3:03am
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

That's legally correct. But from a moral point of view, I think someone is allowed to hate Lucas if he permanently takes away some of his precious childhood experiences (which does not apply to me if we're discussing Star Wars ).


Cees
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#210
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11/28/08 at 3:17am
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Re: The Dark Knight changing Aspect Ratio feels like a Joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
That's legally correct. But from a moral point of view, I think someone is allowed to hate Lucas if he permanently takes away some of his precious childhood experiences (which does not apply to me if we're discussing Star Wars ).


Cees
I could careless what some might think personally of the filmmakers.






Crawdaddy
G.W. McLintock: Camille, you're on your own.
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