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120Hz and True 24p

#31
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11/13/08 at 7:49am
  • Joined: August 2002
  • Post Count: 501

Re: 120Hz and True 24p

A quick comment. Some 120hz displays actually do shows a given frame (from a 24fps source) five times. Thus, whatever judder is in the original film will be present on screen at home - no more, no less. Other 120hz displays are not displaying a frame five times, but rather, do other stuff. As that is the limit of my specific knowledge, I'll leave it at that.

As for the Sony's, they have an option called 'motion enhancer' which, when turned on, does not display a frame five times.

Somewhere there's a list of display devicies that correctly display a 24fps source in a multiple of 24 (e.g., 96 or 120 hz) in 1080p.

-R
The truth doesn't care whether you believe it.
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#32
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11/13/08 at 7:57am
  • Joined: November 2004
  • Location: Toronto Ontario Canada
  • Post Count: 71

Re: 120Hz and True 24p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack Gibbs
24fps is not a weakness of film. You don't think they could make films at higher frame rates if they wanted to? It's a deliberate choice to achieve a deliberate look.
They still shoot films at 24 fps simply because the industry is too cheap to spend more money on film prints. The original Todd-AO process goosed the frame rate up to 30 fps (only for the first two Todd-AO productions) and the little seen Showscan process was shot at 60 fps to eliminate strobing entirely.
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#33
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11/13/08 at 1:06pm
  • Joined: December 1969
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Re: 120Hz and True 24p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lidolt
They still shoot films at 24 fps simply because the industry is too cheap to spend more money on film prints.
I think the NO. 1 reason for films still being shot at 24fps, is simply the hundreds of thousands of movie theaters accross the world that would have to replace the projectors. Eventually the projectors will get replaced to digital ones and I am sure the industry at some point will then start shooting films at either 30fps or 60fps. Personally I can't wait for this change to happen. I see absolutely no artisitic merit in the judder that comes with shooting at 24fps.

Sanjay
Member since July - August 1997

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#34
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11/13/08 at 1:52pm
  • Joined: July 2003
  • Location: Lacombe, AB
  • Post Count: 2,550

Re: 120Hz and True 24p

I used to work projection at a multiplex. Each projector was equipped with a power "rectifier" to reduce the strobe effect, but judder was till visible, moreso on horizontal pans than vertical pans.

\"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player.\"-- Roger Ebert

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#35
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11/14/08 at 2:19pm
  • Joined: August 2001
  • Location: New York City Area
  • Post Count: 3,476

Re: 120Hz and True 24p

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmusingistheDawn
Interesting discussion here. I happen to be in search of a new television and had been considering samsung's LCD line. I was looking at the series 6 46" because it had the 120Hz feature...and it was a considerable amount more for the series 6, whereas the line right under it only has 60hz, but is a bit more affordable by a couple hundred dollars.

Would it make more sense to deal with the 60Hz and pay less in order to afford a larger television...i.e. 52"?

IMHO, unless you plan to play *lots* of video games on the TV in a brightly lit room or leave still graphics and such on it for hours on end (again in brightly lit room), you're better off buying into some other kind of technology instead of LCD. Get a plasma, if you want a flat panel. Get a DLP RPTV, if you want bigger size for less $ (and don't mind the extra 12" depth), especially if your room isn't showroom floor brite.

_Man_

Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".

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#36
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11/14/08 at 5:44pm
  • Joined: November 2008
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Post Count: 133

Re: 120Hz and True 24p

Are you sure? I'm not really into plasmas...I just never really liked them compared to LCD's...I dunno what it is, but it's just something that appeals to my eye. This is all $ for $ too. As far as DLP is concerned...will the picture be any different? I find the price difference to be a bit large to consider the fact that they might look the same. I'm open to suggestions though, as I'm still on the hunt.

Samsung HL61A750
Denon 2808CI & ASD-11R
Panasonic DMP-BD35K
Dish Vip722
PS Quintet Harmony One Klipsch KLF-20's Klipsch KLF-C7 Klipsch S-2's Klipsch RW-10

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#37
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11/15/08 at 11:23am
  • Joined: July 2003
  • Location: Lacombe, AB
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Re: 120Hz and True 24p

DLP is gorgeous. One of its major selling points is the lack of motion trails that sometimes occur with LCDs and plasmas, though I must say that my 27" 4:3 CRT has worse motion trails than either my 26" 16:9 CRT or my 32" LCD. Go figure.

\"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player.\"-- Roger Ebert

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#38
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11/15/08 at 3:39pm
  • Joined: November 2008
  • Location: New Jersey
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Re: 120Hz and True 24p

For just about $1500 on amazon, they have samsung's DLP 61" with LED. Think I should just go for it, or wait until Black Friday? That's a pretty good price right now.

Samsung HL61A750
Denon 2808CI & ASD-11R
Panasonic DMP-BD35K
Dish Vip722
PS Quintet Harmony One Klipsch KLF-20's Klipsch KLF-C7 Klipsch S-2's Klipsch RW-10

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#39
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6/30/09 at 10:54pm
  • Joined: June 2009
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120hz makes film look like video because our brains process images at the equivalent of 60hz.  Film has traditionally had that "dreamy" look because it is shot at 24 frames per second.  This introduces motion blur, since many things in life move faster than 24 frames per second can capture as a still image.  Interestingly, wheels that seem to rotate in the opposite direction do so because they are rotating at the equivalent of 60hz.  When the car or wagon slows down, the wheels suddenly seem to spin in the right direction because they are now below 60hz.  When your computer monitor's refresh rate is set below 60 hz you might see flickering and get headaches because your brain sees the screen constantly refreshing.  Anyway, the reason 120hz TV's make film look like "ultra-video" is because of the rate at which your brain is hard wired to process images.  It really has very little to do with telecine pull-down.  I will never buy a 120hz TV because it ruins movies for me.  120hz is not the way movies are projected in theatres.  I just saw "Speed" at 120hz and I honestly thought at first it was a "behind the scenes" documentary they had made.  When I found out it was the actual movie, I was turned off.

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#40
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6/30/09 at 11:05pm
  • Joined: June 2009
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Motion trails because of response time are completely different from refresh rate.  If a film is shot at 24 frames per second, it WILL have motion blur.  That is natural and desirable.  Many things in life move faster than the equivalent of 24fps.  That motion blur is permanently etched into the source film and nothing can get rid of it.  What 120hz does is interpolates that 24 frame per second source material to artificially create an image that will refresh at 120hz.  You still have the motion blur that was in the source film, but now frames are getting repeated and artificially created to hit that refresh rate.  Response time is when the LED can't turn on or off or switch colors fast enough.  This problem is totally due to the physics of LED's.  LED's physically cannot keep up with the refresh rate.  When there is no motion on screen, we don't notice that the LED can't keep up because each pixel is the same color it was the moment before.  When the motion changes suddenly however, then we see the lag.  DLP doesn't have this problem because the mirrors can rotate far faster than the source material's refresh rate.
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#41
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7/1/09 at 2:58am
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I own the philips 47pfl7403D/f7 HDTV. it can do the 120 and the 24. I will admit that it takes a while to get used to the new look. in the long run its much better. I have had the set for several months now and very happy with it. I know that some people like plasmas, but they are going out of business. people are buying lcds. I would stay away from crt.

Jacob

My Home Theater Equipment:

Philips 47pfl7403D/F7
Onkyo 605 7.1 Receiver
Aiwa Speakers and Sub woofer Panasonic 80 Blu ray Sony PlayStation 3 Blu ray Direct TV in HD with DVR Philips 3980 upconversion dvd player

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