WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

what is this stupid thing with studios who pillarbox credits? this is freaking annoying thing. sure it might give people who have overscan the full creadits but for those who don't have overscan it becomes a distraction.

this was a horrible habbit on dvd and now we see this kinda shit on blu-ray ... thank you very much

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

It was that way on the previous DVD. The main titles on The World Is Not Enough were partially squeezed, which is much more offensive than pillarboxing. I would hope that is corrected when the eventual Blu-ray is released.

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

I f'ing hate that.

I had been hearing reports about some of the problems with color timing, audio mixes, etc. were fixed on these. I was hoping this issue would be corrected as well.

I asked this question at AVSForum, and was directed to a screen grab of the title sequence from For Your Eyes Only and it did not appear to be window boxed.

I guess I'l find out for sure on Tuesday.

I remember the first time I experienced a window boxed title sequence. It was on the 2nd DVD release of Grease. It was so jarring, I felt like I had been punched in the face.

Studios need to stop this shit!

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Maurice Binder was in the habit of being pretty free with his title placement, and they frequently went well outside the "title safe" area. This means that if presented with out the slight pillerbox, many even new HDTVs would have some part of the lettering going off of the screen. Some theaters even had problems with his title sequences.

This is also the case with many golden age films. Casablanca for instance has the titles sequence reduced slightly.

Its not uncommon for older films and I wouldn't expect to see them done any differently as most TVs are not able to display that area.

Doug

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

The Bond DVDs prior to the UEs did not have the window boxed title sequences and on a tv or projector with no overscan, there was not a problem with any of the titles. I had them all and watched them all.

I'm aware that most tvs have varying degrees of overscan, but altering the presentation to accomodate for these sets is ridiculous.

We've fought for proper presentation of widescreen vs pan and scan in the early days of the dvd format as well anamorphic enhancement. Now we have another altering of the original presentation to contend with.

"Some theaters even had problems with his title sequences."

If this was a case for some theaters, I suspect it was improper projection of the film.

Only once in my life have I seen this type of thing in a theater. A small theater in Atlanta was showing Scream. Many of the opening credits were running off the screen. I knew something was wrong, only to realize that they were not projecting the image in the 2.35 aspect ratio.

Of the 400 plus DVDs/Blu Rays that I own and the hundreds more that I have rented, windowboxing of the opening title sequences/opening credits is a phenomenon that I first saw with Grease and the James Bond UEs (I'm talking widescreen movies).

I have seen the window boxing on older 4x3 movies and figured that the reason for it was exactly the same. Again, not necessary for properly set up monitors.

I suspect that this may be being done as to not upset those whose "credit" may be "cut off" due to overscanned televisions. Probably a suggestion of the legal department. It's a shame.

Respectfully,

Robert in Atlanta

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

thunderball on the first dvd release was also pillarboxed. i checked it yesterday myself. another film who had this crap was le mans. honeslty, who ever was responsible should be slapt right in the face!

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Is it really "like a punch in the face"? Really?

I like coming here to learn about new releases or catalogue releases. There are some knowledgeable people here and I've learned a lot about the technical side of filmmaking and the technical aspects of HT gear set up. I've probably purchased nearly 40 films that I would otherwise have passed by, thanks to things I've learned here. But lately it seems people are going into "paroxyms of agony" over relatively minor things. "Windowboxed" title credits (less than 1% of a movie, generally) is "like a punch in the face". There are almost ten SECONDS (not minutes, seconds) missing from a final sustain chord of the score of a movie at the end of the original credits--I demand that these discs be recalled and "fixed".

I understand such gripes as they relate to the controversy about The Last Emperor and the modified AR for the most recent release. I can sympathize with those who are upset the original mono soundtrack for a catalogue film is not on offer. I was on the front lines expressing my distaste for P&S back in VHS days (bought letterbox when I could and was pissed the UK had many more such options on VHS--options I could not use).

It seems to me, though, that if we're down to this level of nitpicking, there is really relatively little left to complain about. There are still snafus (no extras when they exist for SD DVD and would be easily ported over, major DNR issues like Patton and so on) but, honestly, at what point do we go from expressing disappointment (it's too bad the titles are windowboxed on this release, I hope it won't be the case for all of them) to hysterical hyperbole (the windowboxed credits are like a "punch in the face"). I've played on hockey teams in my youth and I worked in a bar where brawls were not uncommon (also in my youth)--I've been punched in the face more than once. A slightly different framing of a few minutes of title credits is NOT "like getting punched in the face".

Let's keep some perspective here.

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

"It seems to me, though, that if we're down to this level of nitpicking, there is really relatively little left to complain about."

This level of nitpicking has resulted in some good things. Remember the misframed sequence in POTC? When it was brought to light, a lot of posters jumped on the poor guy, stating that it was barely noticeable, it didn't bother them, maybe the original was wrong and this is corrected, etc. Only to be reissued by Disney months later.

My point is, the earlier version of the DVDs weren't window boxed and they displayed fine on proper displays. This is a step backwards in quality and proper presentation.

And my punch in the face comment is an exaggeration of my reaction when watching the latest version of Grease when the aspect ratio changed for the title sequence. It was jarring because I wasn't expecting it. And again, the first release of Grease on DVD did not alter the ratio for the title sequence.

This practice is an alteration of the proper presentation. That is my point. It should not be done and should not be excused.

Regards,

Robert

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

paul, it might sound a bit harsh but we are folks who want the best of the best in terms of quality. some people invested many thousand dollars in the equipment so see and hear the best possible presentation. a pillarboxed credit scene is distracting and since it wasn't done for the artistic it feels just out of place. the electronic industry recognices our battles and include more and more tvs without overscan and then comes a movie studio and ruins that.
if anyone feels displeased by missing letters on a movie, get a better setup. i for one want the whole picture and not a squezzed down version of it.
as for the missing ten seconds of a score on a movie's end credits, i don't know any film that this problem.

please remember, if no one complains about a problem, then nothing will change even it's (for you) a minor problem of windowboxed opening credits.

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

It's not about the right to complain--it's about HOW one complains. "A punch in the face" is such an overreaction that if I'm a studio person lurking about in here, I'm laughing at it and moving on. It kills the impact of a properly formulated complaint like "why should the studios cave to faulty display designs with uncontrollable overscan?" That IS a legitimate gripe, and framed that way, it is worth noting for future reference.

The ten second music thing is from the new Godfather BDs (and, presumably, the SD DVDs as well). Look around and you'll find someone thinking it's an affront to humanity or some other such exaggeration.

When I first watched my HD DVD of Casablanca, I noticed the same phenomenon and thought there was something wrong with my setup. It cleared up quickly and I subsequently learned it was deliberately made that way. Would I prefer it wasn't that way? Sure. But I don't think WB would be all that receptive if I framed my complaint as a "punch in the face" or something similar.

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

I have to agree with Paul on this one. Its not about taking note, pointing out a change. Its the way some will say it, and the threats they may make, while saying it. The information may be good to know, and then we can make informed decisions based on that. We may also want to write or e mail the studio in question. But saying, for example, and its a funny one too, Luca$ stole my youth!, is almost as good as pillarboxed credits are a punch in the face. Now if the credits were squished "tall" like they used to do on TV with widescreen movies, that might be like a smack to the back of the head, but still not a punch in the face.

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

So, whatever happened to "Recreating the original theatrical experience"?

Nothing destroys the ability to recreate the original theatrical experience more than this misguided process of windowboxing titles to make up for shortcomings in displays.

The first thing that the viewer notices in that the screen is not completely filled when the image starts. (Note, assuming CIH here). Then at some random point in the movie in some random scene, all of a sudden the image changes size!

Very disturbing.

Vern

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Apologies to anyone who feels my punch in the face comment was out of line.

It was meant in jest. Perhaps I should have put a smiley after that comment.

All I am saying is that I would prefer movies to be presented as they were theatrically.

In this case, not window boxing the title sequences.

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

The window boxing was a choice, not a mistake, so there's nothing to correct. I'm with Paul, it's no big deal. You can always just turn on your overscan.

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

A choice top alter the original theatrical image. I never said it was a mistake.

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Let me see if I get this straight...

You say the opening credit sequence is "pillar" boxed. Not having the disc yet myself, are you saying that this segment of film is merely not as wide as the rest of the feature, or that it is zoomed out (where there would additional "boxing" on all four sides)? Because if the former, perhaps the restoration used more horizontal information from the OCN than was used in theatrical prints (i.e. due to soundtrack issues or what have you.) If the aspect ratio of the footage from the OCN was indeed wider than what was ever created for the title sequence, then as a result it would have to be pillar-boxed, unless you feel the rest of the film should be cropped to compensate?

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

you are right paul and i overreacted. i apologize for this

as for how much it was pillarboxed, just take a look at the screenshots i made. it should be noted that the first scene after the opening credits is also pillarboxed. when the first cut after this scene comes, the movie goes back to normal screensize.



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click the pics to see them in full hd res.

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Okay, from those images it appears the opening titles are approx. 2.15:1 or thereabouts while the full width of the screen would be 2.35:1. I have no answer for this then; the sides are either cropped as was suggested or the image is somehow zoomed out...the top and bottom proportions staying constant however tends to make me believe the former rather than the latter scenario.

I'm not thrilled about it either, but it isn't a deal-breaker for me.

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Some of the early Bond films were 1.66:1, were they not? I know when I watched From Russia With Love on the most recent boxed set of SD DVDs, it was "windowboxed" on my 16:9 screen.

As for the recreating the "theatrical experience"--that is the ideal goal, of course. But if one truly wants to be anal about it, it should include random background noises of people eating popcorn, slurping drinks, whispering/talking on cell phones and a bit of coughing every once in a while. While we're at it, for older films, it's not complete without cigarette smoke wafting in the air.

I try to recreate the "theatrical experience" as well as I can--I have a front projector, a 64 inch 16:9 screen (but, at 7.5 feet away, it is like sitting just a bit further than the middle row at an average cinema), a 5.1 audio setup in which I sank more money on speakers/receiver than most people do into ALL their gear, HD DVD and BD players and so on. I even notice the anomalies like the ones discussed in this thread and I would prefer they were not there. But do we need to get apoplectic over minor details like this?

I guess my "pet peeve" is people overreacting (and it's not confined to the realm of HT). Make a note and complain about issues that bother you--by all means. But let's keep a sense of proportion. But excessive hyperbole simply makes it more difficult to accurately discuss more serious issues (something that causes a lot grief in my profession, so perhaps I'm a bit more irritated by exaggeration than others).

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

this has to bee done if the aspect ratio is smaller then 1.78:1. this doesn't involve croping and it's absolutly ok and not an issue like the problem with the credits on thunderball and other films.

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

You realize we'd be having the opposite thread if the titles weren't pillarboxed and were instead trimmed off the sides of the screen, right?

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Yup.

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

I no longer understand what they're doing, could you post a "regular" scene for comparison?

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Oh wow, those people are part of the actual presentation? I always thought they were just other people in the audience. Guess you learn something every day.

...come on. I think you know very well what people are talking about here. All anybody here wants is to have the movie presented in its original format throughout. Is that really too much to ask?

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

It's simple. They reduce the overall size of the image by putting black bars on all sides.

If you don't see the black bars on the top and bottom or the displayed AR changes, then I have bad news for you:

Your display is one of those that have the overscan problem that triggered this "decision" that was made by the studios to cater to the lowest denomination displays out there. Those displays either are not capable of presentinging a "Pixel Perfect" display of the complete 1920x1080 image captured on the BD or you do not have thee display set up properly to display in "Pixel Perfect diplay mode. Note that this symptom wouldn't appear on letterboxed material unless you are doing CIH.

Vern

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

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Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Thanks Enrico.

When reading the initial post I thought they had essentially "shrunk" the credits sequence to ensure the titles word visible, and that there was slight pillar boxing with a little more letter boxing.

Looking at what they've actually done, I don't have a clue what the point of that is...

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

[/quote]...come on. I think you know very well what people are talking about here. All anybody here wants is to have the movie presented in its original format throughout. Is that really too much to ask?[/quote]

Amen, brother.

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Bottom line and ultimate question becomes "What did the opening credits look like in the initial presentation?"

Does anyone actually know what was shown on the original prints? If the original presentation showed those small black bars on the side should the DVD/BD not do the same.

I honestly don't know the answer, but my original LD copy from 1989 release which was the 1st LTB release of this title as well as the 1993 Connery Box 2 shows the exact same thing though admittedly it is a bit harder to see. I can definitely see a bit of same pillarbox on both the right and left sides of the screen after the credits start and you can see the same 'fade' in and out of the bars at the beginning and again the end of the opening credits.

The whole idea of letterboxing/pillarboxing/windowboxing and how to scan the film to be 'overscan safe' was still a developing concept in 1989 I wonder if the folks that transferred the video would have conceived of that issue. It was even common that many of the original LTX videos even showed the VBI at the top of the screen.

Re: WTF - Opening Credits of Thunderball on BR are Pillarboxed

Omigod, you people are giving me a headache with your confusion over this. All MGM has done (and it is exactly the same with the ultimate edition DVD) is to slightly squeeze the picture during the credits to bring in the sides and avoid overscan cropping for those who don't have zero-overscan displays.