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WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

#1
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9/27/08 at 1:02am
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#2
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9/27/08 at 1:32am
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

This will undoubtedly move some Blu-Ray players.
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9/27/08 at 7:59am
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

All things considered, you'd think Nolan would have the muscle to say no pan and scan 4:3 release if he wanted to.
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9/29/08 at 4:50am
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

A blu-ray player isn't in my immediate future, so I'm really disappointed that WHV stacked the BD version with more extras than the 2-disc standard DVD version. I was hoping for something at least along the lines of the 2-disc Begins edition, where we had a lot of shorts touching on nearly every aspect of the film.

I know it's WHV's way of pushing consumers to blu-ray, but I don't like being punished for not having the means (or willingness to go into debt) to jump on the blu-ray bandwagon.

\"Life began in mystery, and it will end in mystery, but what a savage and beautiful country lies in between.\" - Diane Ackerman

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9/29/08 at 5:32am
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael:M
A blu-ray player isn't in my immediate future, so I'm really disappointed that WHV stacked the BD version with more extras than the 2-disc standard DVD version. I was hoping for something at least along the lines of the 2-disc Begins edition, where we had a lot of shorts touching on nearly every aspect of the film.

I know it's WHV's way of pushing consumers to blu-ray, but I don't like being punished for not having the means (or willingness to go into debt) to jump on the blu-ray bandwagon.
It is no more (or less) "punishing" than when one shops for a car with multiple trim levels--leather and a sunroof are nice, but not available on the "base model". SD DVD has become "the base model". Some companies (like some car manufacturers) put more "features" into their "base models" but it is standard marketing practice to entice people into the more upscale model by adding exclusive features. One can expect more of this kind of feature differentiation (not less) between SD DVD and BD as time goes on.

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9/29/08 at 5:35am
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewWickliffe
All things considered, you'd think Nolan would have the muscle to say no pan and scan 4:3 release if he wanted to.
In this case, though (and I'm not saying I condone P&S), the IMAX scenes might look good. However, I have no idea if the IMAX scenes are included in that format in the SD DVD releases, so this potential "saving grace" may be nothing of the kind for the P&S version.

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#7
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9/29/08 at 7:07am
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

hollywoodinhidef.com has the actual press release and the 2-Disc Special Edition DVD includes the Gotham Uncovered documentary, the Gotham Tonight episodes (6), and the IMAX sequences(1:78.1) as special features on the second disc along with galleries for the poster art and production stills...

For the Blu-Ray, I think the question is whether Gotham Uncovered is a separate documentary as it is on the DVD or is it the Focus Points, and if so, can you view it as an In-Movie Experience...?
"Because he's the hero Gotham deserves.  But, not the one it needs right now.  So, we'll hunt.  Because he can take.  Because, he's not a hero.  He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector.  A DARK KNIGHT."
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#8
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9/29/08 at 7:27am
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulDA
...it is standard marketing practice to entice people into the more upscale model by adding exclusive features. One can expect more of this kind of feature differentiation (not less) between SD DVD and BD as time goes on.

As I stated above, I understand why they're doing it. I just don't like it, and if I'm going to shell out the money for special edition anyway -giving WHV more money - it'd be nice to see all the extras.

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#9
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9/29/08 at 8:08am
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

The specially-filmed Imax sequences are presented as supplements on disc two of the "special edition" DVD, so I presume that the film as presented on disc one includes the entire movie in the standard 2.35:1 aspect ratio. Any word on whether the same is true for the Blu-ray? I seem to recall reading that the Imax sequences would be "opened up" to 16:9 for the Blu-ray version of the movie, but without the giant Imax screen, I'd prefer it retain the conventional 2:35 aspect ratio for the movie proper and save the Imax footage for the supplements.

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#10
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9/29/08 at 9:58am
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

I'd prefer to have both versions via seamless branching - that wouldn't be so hard for the SD or Blu-ray, would it?

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#11
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9/29/08 at 10:19am
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

The Bluray has the Imax scenes included in the film, it's possible it will have both. The dvd does not and, apparently, can not. Though I don't really know why.

"Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now... and so we'll hunt him... because he can take it... because he's not a hero... he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector... a DARK KNIGHT."

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9/29/08 at 11:32am
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim-H.
I'd prefer to have both versions via seamless branching - that wouldn't be so hard for the SD or Blu-ray, would it?

Though I'd prefer the 2.35:1 version over the multi-ratio Imax version, this would, of course, be the ideal solution. Seamless branching is doable on Blu-ray, isn't it? And it should be trivial for DVD, which has been doing seamless branching regularly for years. Why not make everyone happy be including both versions of the film on both releases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack Gibbs
The Bluray has the Imax scenes included in the film, it's possible it will have both. The dvd does not and, apparently, can not. Though I don't really know why.

That the Blu-ray version will have the Imax ratio-scenes incorporated into the film seems to be the popular wisdom, but what is the source of that information?

Also, I don't know where you heard that the DVD cannot include the Imax version of the film, but I'm quite certain that it's incorrect. There's no technical reason that different scenes can't be in different aspect ratios, and there are at least a few movies out there on DVD with multiple/changing aspect ratios.

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#13
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9/29/08 at 12:02pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Christopher Nolan confirmed the Blu would contain the Imax scenes, and that they would be framed at 1.78.1. I believe the marketing for it is pretty clear too, the bluray contains "IMAX framed sequences," the dvd has the IMAX scenes listed as special features included on the second disc.

I wouldn't think there's a technical reason they couldn't switch between aspect ratios on DVD either, but they still said that was the case. This was back just before the movie came out and they first addressed releasing the BluMAX version. The info should be tucked away somewhere in one of the TDK threads.

"Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now... and so we'll hunt him... because he can take it... because he's not a hero... he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector... a DARK KNIGHT."

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#14
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9/29/08 at 1:03pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

I wonder if they really mean all of the specially filmed IMAX sequences. For instance, just about every aerial shot in the film, including brief establishing shots of locations that were not otherwise part of larger action sequences, were shot with IMAX cameras and shown "full frame" on the IMAX prints.

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Ken McAlinden
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#15
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9/29/08 at 1:51pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cafink
Though I'd prefer the 2.35:1 version over the multi-ratio Imax version, this would, of course, be the ideal solution. Seamless branching is doable on Blu-ray, isn't it? And it should be trivial for DVD, which has been doing seamless branching regularly for years.
They wouldn't even need branching. Just include a subtitle track that masks the top and bottom of the picture to 2.35:1 with thick black lines.
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#16
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9/29/08 at 2:11pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arild
They wouldn't even need branching. Just include a subtitle track that masks the top and bottom of the picture to 2.35:1 with thick black lines.

I suppose this would be better than nothing, bud I'd still prefer the video data to contain the actual 2.35:1 framing. For one thing, were the Imax scenes filmed such that the 2:35:1 frame was vertically centered within the larger Imax frame? And even if they were, the "subtitle mask" solution would mean that viewers of the 2.35:1 version would be unable to use actual subtitles. I think that DVD's subtitle feature should be reserved for actual subtitles (as well as captions and similar on-screen text, of course), and not gimmicky video features.

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9/29/08 at 3:10pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cafink
For one thing, were the Imax scenes filmed such that the 2:35:1 frame was vertically centered within the larger Imax frame? And even if they were, the "subtitle mask" solution would mean that viewers of the 2.35:1 version would be unable to use actual subtitles.
They wouldn't be if there was also a subtitle tracks containing both the black bars and the actual subtitles.

But yeah, just how the 2.35:1 frame is positioned in the larger IMAX frame could potentially be an issue.
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#18
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9/29/08 at 3:36pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

That idea of using subtitles as IMAX masking bars to cut down on disc space (for having two versions of those sequences branched) is so wonderfully clever, I seriously doubt whoever is authoring the subtitles and whatnot would come up with that.

Seriously, that's a hell of a creative idea.

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#19
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9/29/08 at 4:08pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

It's been done before. Pioneer's Bride of Re-Animator DVD includes a full-screen transfer, and optional widescreen masking via a subtitle track. Of course, the obvious problem with that approach is that it loses the additional resolution of a proper 16:9 transfer.

The Dark Knight would admittedly not suffer this problem if the Imax sequences were presented in 16:9, and the rest of the film masked to 2.35:1 within that the 16:9 frame. But, there are still a couple of issues to consider. As I said before, I don't know how the 2:35 versions of those scenes are framed within the larger 16:9 image.

Besides that, I don't think you could get the masking to work on both 4:3 and 16:9 monitors, because DVD players don't downsample subtitles like they do the rest of the image when displaying a 16:9 DVD on a 4:3 television. As a result, they're positioned differently with respect to the actual video image depending on the display ratio. This is why the video commentary on the Ghostbusters DVD, for example, requires the viewer to set his DVD player to 4:3. In 16:9, the subtitle overlay would have been distorted--it can only work in one ratio or the other.

Finally, it's generally a bad idea to appropriate standard features like subtitles for these kinds of "creative" uses. The DVD format's subtitle feature is meant to display captions and other text data in time with the video. If the disc author wants to include alternate versions of a scene, or multiple aspect ratios, that is what the alternate angle and seamless branching features are for. The Dark Knight is not a cheap budget title like Bride of Re-Animator. It is one of the most successful films of all-time, both critically and commercially. I think Warner can afford to do its home video release right.

Carl Fink
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#20
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9/29/08 at 4:19pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cafink
It's been done before. Pioneer's Bride of Re-Animator DVD includes a full-screen transfer, and optional widescreen masking via a subtitle track.
Interesting. Didn't know that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cafink
Besides that, I don't think you could get the masking to work on both 4:3 and 16:9 monitors, because DVD players don't downsample subtitles like they do the rest of the image when displaying a 16:9 DVD on a 4:3 television.
Actually, I believe a single subtitle track can actually contain two different versions; one for 4:3 and one for 16:9 and the player will display whichever one is appropriate. So this shouldn't really be an issue.
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#21
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9/29/08 at 4:37pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cafink
But, there are still a couple of issues to consider. As I said before, I don't know how the 2:35 versions of those scenes are framed within the larger 16:9 image.

I took a ****load of the Prologue (encoded as mp4 and contained in an mkv file) and cropped it to 2.35:1, and while the sequence itself didn't have any issues of being cropped too much, several shots of the ending clips - specifically the shot of Batman standing atop the Sears Tower - were cropped to the point of masking half of Batman's head.

I think I posted screencaps of it in one of the main TDK threads. I'll post them again if I can find them, probably in my photobucket account.

Therefore, the cropping for the standard theatrical version was selectively done.



Quote:
If the disc author wants to include alternate versions of a scene, or multiple aspect ratios, that is what the alternate angle and seamless branching features are for. The Dark Knight is not a cheap budget title like Bride of Re-Animator. It is one of the most successful films of all-time, both critically and commercially. I think Warner can afford to do its home video release right.

Very true, but it would cut down on disc space meaning better compression for the film itself.
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#22
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9/30/08 at 11:17am
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

From: The Digital Bits - Celebrating Film in the Digital Age...

"...I've just heard back from Warner Home Video on this, so here's the deal: The widescreen versions of the DVD will present the film in a 2.40:1 anamorphic widescreen aspect ratio, reproducing the standard theatrical experience of the film. For the Blu-ray Disc however, while most of the film will also be presented in the 2.40:1 anamorphic widescreen ratio, the scenes that were specifically shot in IMAX format will be presented at 1.78:1, which will fill the frame and will thus recreate the IMAX experience at home..."
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#23
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9/30/08 at 12:09pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)



Glad to finally have a definitive answer, though. Thanks.

Carl Fink
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#24
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9/30/08 at 12:18pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Why in the hell is WB releasing TDK on Blu-ray with the inserted IMAX scenes. I have a CinemaCurve screen with side masking panels, so when I watch a DVD or Blu-ray disc shot in CinemaScope or (2.35:1, etc.) will be presented without blacks bars at the bottom. This' really stupid and completely wrong to do this. My side panels don't work that fast in masking the sides. WB should have done is have the IMAX scenes as bonus features like the 2-disc DVD version. I hate to do this, but I will be buying the DVD version instead. Also did anybody notice that TDK was shot in 2.40:1, and BB was shot in 2.35:1. I really hate this.
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#25
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9/30/08 at 2:38pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

So other people should dip out on this cool Blu-Ray feature just so you aren't inconvenienced, and you signed up specifically to post this complaint. (Since I see this was your first post.)

That's asinine.

I could probably buy a Blu-Ray player, but there's no point. Even the most hardened fans have said that anything below a 40" screen makes it pointless and I was watching Blu-Ray demos today and they just don't impress me. The leap from DVD to Blu-Ray is far less than VHS to DVD, and I have no interest.

If WHV want to screw me out of extras, whatever. I firmly believe Blu-Ray is going to wind up being this decades laserdisc. (And sales figures seem to bear that conclusion out.)

Really can't wait to get TDK on DVD. I am torn as to whether this or Iron Man was the best superhero movie this year. Only thing I know for sure is TDK should NOT have been a PG. I've let my kids see Iron Man. I don't think I could let them see TDK without editing a fair bit of it. (Something I've done in the past with Hot Fuzz, so they can at least see one of "daddy's favourite movies" for the most part and they don't feel left out.)
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#26
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9/30/08 at 3:03pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonedwarf
I could probably buy a Blu-Ray player, but there's no point. Even the most hardened fans have said that anything below a 40" screen makes it pointless and I was watching Blu-Ray demos today and they just don't impress me. The leap from DVD to Blu-Ray is far less than VHS to DVD, and I have no interest.

I have a 42" and a 26" and I certainly see the benefit of Blu-ray on both screen sizes, so to each their own.

As for the Aspect Ratio, IT IS DIRECTOR CHRISTOPHER NOLAN'S INTENDED VISION OF THE FILM.

Therefore, don't suddenly turn into a bunch of hypocrites when "Original Aspect Ratio" and "Director's approved version" are some of THE principles this forum believes in.

If this is what Nolan wants BD owners to see, so be it.

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#27
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9/30/08 at 3:17pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonedwarf
So other people should dip out on this cool Blu-Ray feature just so you aren't inconvenienced, and you signed up specifically to post this complaint. (Since I see this was your first post.)

Both the DVD and Blu-ray formats have the capability of including both versions of the film. No one should have to "dip out." Why Warner is not taking advantage of this (and why the DVD release includes one version of the film and Blu-ray the other) I don't know, but I think it's a legitimate complaint.

Quote:
Only thing I know for sure is TDK should NOT have been a PG.

The Dark Knight was rated PG-13. To be honest, though, I kind of thought it maybe should have been rated R.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin
I have a 42" and a 26" and I certainly see the benefit of Blu-ray on both screen sizes, so to each their own.

How close to your 26" screen do you sit?

Quote:
As for the Aspect Ratio, IT IS DIRECTOR CHRISTOPHER NOLAN'S INTENDED VISION OF THE FILM.

Then why wasn't the film released that way in most theaters or on DVD?

Quote:
If this is what Nolan wants BD owners to see, so be it.


I'm interested in (but not a slave to) Nolan's vision of the movie. Not his vision for Blu-ray or DVD. If he want's changing aspect ratios, then fine. But then why not release that version on DVD. Why can't DVD owners get the benefit of Nolan's vision?

Carl Fink
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#28
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9/30/08 at 3:44pm
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cafink
How close to your 26" screen do you sit?

Bedroom:

length of your average double bed with a few pillows, and the TV is on one of those cheap microwave/tv carts with wheels. so it's wheeled up to the bottom of the bed.

Quote:
Then why wasn't the film released that way in most theaters or on DVD?

I'm interested in (but not a slave to) Nolan's vision of the movie. Not his vision for Blu-ray or DVD. If he want's changing aspect ratios, then fine. But then why not release that version on DVD. Why can't DVD owners get the benefit of Nolan's vision?

I think we both know the answer to that, and Blu-ray gets it because of its higher resolution to DVD, and Nolan knows this.
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#29
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10/1/08 at 5:46am
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

I would say that 40" is around the point that you see clear advantages to 1080p versus 720p, but you should notice a non-subtle difference between SD and any flavor of HD on much smaller screens than that.

Regards,

Ken McAlinden
Livonia, MI USA

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#30
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10/1/08 at 10:23am
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Re: WHV Announcement: The Dark Knight (DVD/Blu-ray)

Definitely.
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