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Heroes - Season Three

#121
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Stephen L,

An excellent summary of exactly what my main gripes are about this season of Heroes.



While I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet as I am willing to give the show a few episodes to sort things out I'm reaching the end of my "suspension of disbelief" rope. There are just so many hours in the day (and a couple of really promising new shows as well as other old favorites) for me to devote to the telly. It has become necessary in the world of hundreds of choices to perform Television Triage.

I really don't like it when a show tries to milk the basic premise rather than knowing when to wrap things up. Is that a shark that I see in the distance?


RAF
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#122
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAF
Is that a shark that I see in the distance?

No! You're seeing what Mohinder has become after the injection!

I can't argue too much with what Stephen has said. I think a lot of those points are ones I noticed on a subconcious level but only chalked up to "there's something off for me."

I will say in the show's defense that a few of those points need a little more time. For instance, I have read from the producers that Niki will be explained in the third episode. And, a bit about her:


Warning Spoiler! Click to show
They swear she is dead and gone and we'll see the body in the coffin. I don't know who this woman will be, but she's apparently not Niki with a new personality.


Also, the Odessa Paper Company:


Warning Spoiler! Click to show
In the same article, they said that Claire and family will be moving back to Texas. They'll probably pick up any lost threads once this happens. It sounds a little like a desperate attempt to literally return the show to what it was in season one, but that could be unfair to say. Who knows.
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#123
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_L
Nikki now has a twin; this is one of the lamest plot devices ever (refer to Denise Crosby in TNG as a footnote)

She always had a twin though. Before the whole power manifested, we were told at the beginning that Jessica was her sister who had died earlier.
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#124
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_L
My specific complaints about season three are:

Nikki now has a twin; this is one of the lamest plot devices ever (refer to Denise Crosby in TNG as a footnote)

Silar's schtick has gotten old. Its shock value has worn off. The writers should have let him die in the season one climax and introduced fresh villains. Oh and if he need only see or touch the brains of heroes to steal their powers, why are their brains always missing after he's done?

No one stays dead in this show! Nikki reappears (to be fair as a new character), Linderman is back, Nathan is back, Claire's mom is back. It seems there is no action that some deus ex machina cannot reset.

Plot devices that were once fresh are endlessly recycled. The clairvoyant artist, the future man returning to the past to set things right, the superhero killer, the dark future to be averted (we're on our third reiteration of that).

Some of the more interesting story elements have been dropped. I wanted to know more about the Odessa Paper Company operation and the league of superhero elders that raised and seek to guide this generation.

I don't want to appear as though I am singling you out, but since you summed up some common issues, I figured I would post my thoughts by quoting you.

- Niki Sanders has always had a twin. This was a big storyline in s1, as it revealed why her Father was so distant (he killed Jessica, or did he?), as well as explaining why Niki had multiple personality disorder (it was a defense mechanism) and why her name was Jessica. Also, there exists the possibility that the new character is simply another of Niki's personalities, but with a new power and even stronger will (she has zero knowledge of Niki, whereas Jessica did, even interacting with her).

- While I can definately see how people are bored with Sylar, you have to understand that shows, like books, have themes, and one of the themes of Heroes is clearly the duality of humanity. To this end, we are given two characters, Peter and Sylar, who share so much - multiple powers, a mother (!), the willingness to use their powers to change the world. However, they differ greatly, as well - Peter gets his powers through empathic means, while Sylar essentially steals them. They are two sides to the same coin, and if Sylar were eliminated, Peter would have to leave too, otherwise the theme is shattered.

- Of course nobody stays dead in the show! The underlying concept of the show is comic books, but in television form. Everything from the themes, to the dialogue, to the way they construct the first few minutes of the episodes (often repeating events, but with slightly different angles, dialogue, etc) is ripped right from comics. It's simply a given that in comics, nobody stays dead. In fact, there is even a rule about this: nobody is dead, except Bucky and Uncle Ben (this rule has even itself, been broken). That has been carried over to Heroes. Rather than a flaw, this actually supports another theme/eternal question of the show:is there any point to our actions? If villains keep returning, why bother to stop them? More mature explorations of this question, I'll save for another time.

- I will agree with you that powers are being recycled. However, the time travel/future prediction angle ties directly in with the futility of human action theme, not to mention a ubiquitous device in comics. Moreover, like it or not (and a lot do not), time travel is an interesting way to explore this theme. With multiple characters with the ability to travel through time and/or see the future, this device will probably never go away.

- You are definately correct about interesting plot threads being cast aside. Let's hope they are picked up again at a later time. With reference to the seperate stoylines coming together at the end of s1, that was obviously an intended, limited-use thing. The show even began with a voice-over stating that all stories have beginnings, and s1 would be it, showing how the heroes (and villains) found their powers, and came together. I suspect we'll see limited screentime dedicated to new characters exploring their new-found powers, and instead will see people who have had them for a while, and are ready and willing to use them. Personally, while the show is somewhat of a character-study, I would find the formula of "introduce a new hero, see them horrified to discover their power, then grow to love/use it" as tired a device as some see time travel.

I guess ultimately, I find it curious that many complaints (and again, I'm not trying to single you or anyone out, just speaking in general) about Heroes deal with devices and elements which are virtually synonomous with comic books. The show is supposed to be a comic series writ large, for the television screen. It's sort of silly to watch a comic book television show, and find issue with standard comic book stuff.

cheers!

Josh
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#125
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
It's sort of silly to watch a comic book television show, and find issue with standard comic book stuff.

This statement expresses my feelings exactly.

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#126
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Josh, no problem man. Your explanations are fine but they don't work for me. Watching an important character die is powerful and poignant; if you can count on them cropping back up again, the death is made meaningless. And resurrecting a character in a new identity (ala Tasha Yar/Sela) breaks my limit of suspension of disbelief. You actually touched on another problem I have with the characters and that is the creation of invincible heroes/villains like Silar/Peter. Having a person discover an ability, decide on a destiny is very human and interesting; having them cruise around a story godlike is not (for example Neo who was immensely interesting in the Matrix until he became a god and could bring the dead to life. I just can't empathize with that) Time travel is interesting but the hardened future man in a dark future world returning to change things is now on its second run. Its too repetitious. I would have enjoyed a time travel story that went back in time to perhaps learn about the league of elder heroes, how they discovered who they were, why they didn't 'come out' and reveal themselves, what their goals were. Maybe to hunt Silar before he became a threat, or save the elders (then the Silar/Peter connection could have been intriguingly introduced) Instead we got the weak ancient Japan subplot with a caucasian Japanese legend (weak), pointless romance (weak) that could essentially be removed from the story with no loss in real plot.

Sorry to rant so. I started season three and will give it a couple episodes more to get its hooks in me, but thus far it hasn't captured the season one mystery or buzz for me.

\"The old that is strong does not wither, deep roots are not reached by the frost.\"

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#127
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitchman
Well, it was neat seeing William Katt again. What's not to like? The Greatest American Hero meets Heroes! Unfortunately, it looks like he won't be back anytime soon...

Unless his power is freezing and then shattering himself in order to trick someone into thinking he's dead and then re-combining himself later on.

40% Ben Katz + 30% Bobby Hill (Texas) + 20% Monica Geller + 10% William Dent. (Wardrobe by George Costanza)

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#128
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
- While I can definately see how people are bored with Sylar, you have to understand that shows, like books, have themes, and one of the themes of Heroes is clearly the duality of humanity.
a show can have a theme and still be entertaining at the same time the episode (and last season) may be clinging to themes but it's not entertaining a whole lot of people.
Quote:
It's sort of silly to watch a comic book television show, and find issue with standard comic book stuff.
the comic book stuff was in the first season and people still enjoyed it. the issue now is that i guess it's just not being handled well by the writers. LOST is a sci-fi show at heart and when it had its lull in season 3, it wasn't because of its sci-fi elements. and when it had its resurgence in season 4, it wasn't because of its sci-fi elements. my problems with Heroes is not with its comic-book elements, but characters acting out of their character.


"now, if that's a fact, tell me... am i lying?"

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#129
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

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Originally Posted by EricW
the comic book stuff was in the first season and people still enjoyed it. the issue now is that i guess it's just not being handled well by the writers. LOST is a sci-fi show at heart and when it had its lull in season 3, it wasn't because of its sci-fi elements. and when it had its resurgence in season 4, it wasn't because of its sci-fi elements. my problems with Heroes is not with its comic-book elements, but characters acting out of their character.

While that may be true for your case, I certainly see a lot of people having issues specifically with "comic book stuff."
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#130
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_L
No one stays dead in this show!
Yeah... except Simone, Isaac, Ted, Alejandro, D.L., Eden, Bob, Kaito, Jackie, Chandra and whoever I may be forgetting.

Quote:
Nikki reappears (to be fair as a new character), Linderman is back, Nathan is back, Claire's mom is back.
As far as we know, Nikki is dead and there may yet be a plausible explanation for her doppelganger's existance. Too early to tell. As for Linderman, I'm guessing he's a figment of Nathan's imagination and really still dead. Again, too early to tell. Claire's mom, however, was never killed off in the first place.

Seriously, the "no one stays dead" complaint is one I keep hearing but it just isn't a legitimate complaint. In fact, I can't think of any characters who have really returned from the dead except Nathan and HRG (characters with known healing powers don't freakin count!). I guess Sylar comes close, though.
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#131
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

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While that may be true for your case, I certainly see a lot of people having issues specifically with "comic book stuff."

But there is a big difference between good Comic Book stuff and bad. The first season was chalk full of good comic book storylines. A nice weave. And the cool cut away effect that resembled comic books (where did that go?)

But the problem now is that it's drifted into very bad comic book territory. A lot of comic books go through this. As much as I love some X-Men, there were books in those series that were downright terrible because of the way they betrayed characters. Good shows can do that too.. see Buffy Season 7.

But the problem with Heroes is that it is revamping the same ideas repetitively, not that they are comic book ideas. It's that they can't change or adapt other comic book ideas. More time travellers and butterfly effects make this far more "Terminator" then Heroes.

Having the villains break out is a great potential storyline. And there is nothing wrong with having multiple storylines.

But using future Peter to enable the Villains to get out is a contrivance that basically seems to betray at least one of the good ideas of Season 2. That is that you can introduce new characters to fill roles. Now, in Season 2, they introduced mostly crap characters.

Heroes should have learned from X-Men. A character like Magneto, a sympathetic bad guy who breaks out the villains to organize would be interesting.. and a new character to follow. The use of the same plot lines and time travel makes the story weaker, much weaker, and far less interesting then it could have been. The setup makes it far too easy for them to hit the reset button if the audience doesn't like it.

So, they've painted many characters into corners and provided easy opt-outs for the writers. I'll keep watching for now, but I fear where I think these storylines will go.
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#132
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

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Originally Posted by mattCR
Having the villains break out is a great potential storyline. And there is nothing wrong with having multiple storylines.

But using future Peter to enable the Villains to get out is a contrivance that basically seems to betray at least one of the good ideas of Season 2. That is that you can introduce new characters to fill roles.
Except future Peter didn't directly enable the Villains to get out. It was just a ripple from his discouraging Claire from seeing Nathan and thus Sylar getting to Claire. Though, if Nathan didn't get shot in the "original" timeline then would Claire have wanted to rush there after the announcement?

In any case, we've only seen two hours of this sequence. "Villains" is just going to be the first story arc of the season. Now whether the wrap-up of "Villains" just will wrap up with the story of the escaped ones and not the other storylines just introduced is another matter.
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#133
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

I don't get it. What did future Peter have to do with Sylar getting Claires' power? If Peter does not come back to shoot Nathan, Claire would have still been home when Sylar came calling, having no reason to be worried about Nathan.

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#134
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

One possibility is that when Nathan makes his announcement, Claire high-tails it out of there because she goes to find cover from possible witchhunt for the "heroes". Or she could have gotten a call from one of HRG's operatives who is looking out for her and convinces her to high-tail it out Odessa.

"Jee-sus, it's like Iwo Jima out there" - Roger Sterling on "Mad Men"
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#135
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
I don't get it. What did future Peter have to do with Sylar getting Claires' power? If Peter does not come back to shoot Nathan, Claire would have still been home when Sylar came calling, having no reason to be worried about Nathan.

Shh. Reason slipped out the door a while back. That's the problem with time traveling loops creating dependencies.
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#136
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

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Originally Posted by Dheiner
I don't get it. What did future Peter have to do with Sylar getting Claires' power? If Peter does not come back to shoot Nathan, Claire would have still been home when Sylar came calling, having no reason to be worried about Nathan.

They covered this in a conversation with the mother. Future Peter upon returning to present time called up Claire and told her to stay home. (I'm not sure if she planned on going to the announcement with Nathan, but that was the assumption I made and the reason he would have told her to stay home would be so she didn't see it happen.)
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#137
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattCR
But the problem now is that it's drifted into very bad comic book territory.

Well, if you read newsarama, Loeb is a pretty reviled figure as far as comic writing goes. And, I have to admit, you better be in the right frame of mind when reading his Hulk or you won't get it. I've never managed to be in that right place. Red Hulk bitchslapping the Watcher is just kind of . . . ohhh, no, you di'n't.
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#138
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattCR
Shh. Reason slipped out the door a while back. That's the problem with time traveling loops creating dependencies.

Shh. Actually, not so in this case. This particular event was actually explained in the general dialogue of the show. Future Peter had phoned Claire and told her to stay home, so instead of Sylar visiting the Bennetts, only to find the place empty (save for Mr. Muggles), he found Claire, and helped himself to her power.
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#139
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

An illustration of the Butterfly Effect, and one of the most important conversations of those 2 hours.

--
H
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#140
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
Shh. Actually, not so in this case. This particular event was actually explained in the general dialogue of the show. Future Peter had phoned Claire and told her to stay home, so instead of Sylar visiting the Bennetts, only to find the place empty (save for Mr. Muggles), he found Claire, and helped himself to her power.

Again, the question is raised....if Nathan had not been shot in the first place, where would Claire have been?
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#141
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip_HT
Again, the question is raised....if Nathan had not been shot in the first place, where would Claire have been?
Somewhere else, or else Future Peter wouldn't have changed that part of the past. She could have run down to 7-Eleven for a slushie. She could have run to her biological father's side to join his just announced movement for superpowered leadership. It doesn't matter. There is no reason that she would have necessarily had to have been home without a specific phone call from Future Peter, so the show didn't cheat.
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#142
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Lenhardt
Somewhere else, or else Future Peter wouldn't have changed that part of the past. She could have run down to 7-Eleven for a slushie. She could have run to her biological father's side to join his just announced movement for superpowered leadership. It doesn't matter. There is no reason that she would have necessarily had to have been home without a specific phone call from Future Peter, so the show didn't cheat.

Not directly but why didn't future Peter meet with this brother prior to the speech in the first place? Why did he shoot his brother? How could he shoot his brother? Cheating is the smaller matter here. Poor story logic is the bigger crime.

Every man is my superior, in that I may learn from him.

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#143
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

deleted - double post

Every man is my superior, in that I may learn from him.

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#144
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
why didn't future Peter meet with this brother prior to the speech in the first place? Why did he shoot his brother?
i made this point back in post 89, and while it's completely stupid, i've made my peace with this particular irrationality. it's as sloppy as season 1, where Hiro comes from the future to tell Peter to save the cheerleader. don't say why, or from who, or when (always give as little information as possible). and don't save the cheerleader yourself.
but, when it happened in season 1, it was the first time, so there was an originality to it, a freshness. and it was just a freakin' cool scene. but now they're going back to the well again and it's just lame.


"now, if that's a fact, tell me... am i lying?"

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#145
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Sytsma
Not directly but why didn't future Peter meet with this brother prior to the speech in the first place? Why did he shoot his brother? How could he shoot his brother?
Might not some of these questions be answered after the season premiere?
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#146
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Indeed, I said the same earlier. Maybe Future Peter, who presumably has spent a long time reconstructing time line, knows something that we don't. Or maybe it was a completely impulsive move, as played out (fresh off nearly getting his head blown off by Claire.)

Something is up with that gun.

--
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#147
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Lenhardt
Might not some of these questions be answered after the season premiere?
They better be! And soon. If not, then hasta la vista, Heroes. Because right now it stands as bad writing.

Unfortunately the issues with the other characters remain.

Every man is my superior, in that I may learn from him.

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#148
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Saw the first 2 episodes of S3 last night, thanks to NBC for repeating them!

I admit I was also confused a bit. I thought I missed something from S2. But over time, I started to figure it out and by the end, I was pretty much up to speed. I didn't get to finish re-watching S2 on DVD yet and still plan to.

I've read through most of the posts in this thread. Thanks for reminding us what Sylar's orginal power was, the ability to see and understand how a device works, or timepieces in his case. I saw S1 on DVD and I never understood all the talk about how Sylar eats brains! I liked the how Claire asked about that. So I gathered that Sylar just had to look and her brain to understand her power, as the dialogue and the posts here explained. But it looked like at one point he pulled something out of Claire's brain. Nice of him to put her hair back on.

I agree that Hiro seemed a bit out of character to open the safe. I loved how George Takei yelled at him for opening the safe!

I think the Ando who appears to kill the future Hiro is a shape shifter.

I was amused by the "I am your father" moment and a had a good chuckle.

I was confused by Nikki too. Makes sense as someone pointed out that she appeared to die in a fire and her freezing ability could have saved her, something I forgot as I have not re-viewed that S2 episode yet. I am wondering, and I'll hope to be reminded upon reviewing the S2 DVDs, what happened to some of the characters. Why is Mohinder suddenly so interested in injecting himself with the serum? I thought he'd stay where he was, so he was like us the audience, the observer.

I am open to see how the season plays out. They set it up and now we see if they do it well.
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#149
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson Au
I am open to see how the season plays out. They set it up and now we see if they do it well.
Nelson, I hope you keep that attitude for ST XI!

Every man is my superior, in that I may learn from him.

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#150
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Re: Heroes - Season Three

Quote:
I agree that Hiro seemed a bit out of character to open the safe. I loved how George Takei yelled at him for opening the safe!

The latter was the point, I think. They made a rather inconsequential sacrifice of believability and how Hiro would "really" react in order to make it a funny scene.

I'm telling all of y'all, just watch tomorrow to find out about Niki. If I'm wrong and Kring lied about that, you can drink my last Brawndo.
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