Is burn-on-demand the future?

after reading the article on tvshowsondvd.com about the 'Create Space' burn on demand made me wonder if this was the future and if the titles listed will ever receive a mainstream release or not

Site News DVD news: Amazon and Nickelodeon/Paramount Strike Deal for Burn-on-Demand Titles | TVShowsOnDVD.com

My most requested show South Of Nowhere is on the list of shows and makes me wonder if this will get a mainstream release now or only be burn-on-demand

what does everyone else think, is this the future of TV-on-DVD?

Re: Is burn-on-demand the future?

I'm also curious if some of the titles will be given a mainstream release.

I think this is quite a neat idea and a good way to get many obscure titles that may not get released out on DVD. I personally would love to see many Canadian shows such as "Edison Twins", "The Little Vampire", "An American in Canada" "The 5th Quadrant", "Student Bodies", "Seeing Things" and "Puttnam's Prairie Emporium" go this route as the likelihood of any of these being released at this point is slim.

Other then those shows such as "Pirate Islands", "Sightings", "Kid Nation", "Brat Camp", "Mighty Max", "Mad Jack the Pirate", "Phenom" and the game show "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego" plus the dozens of short lived shows that would get a chance to be released with this method.

I'm actually quite excited entertaining the idea of this and hope more comes out of it or is developed further provided that good hands are in place as well.

I also didn't mean to turn this into another wish list thread but wanted to use examples of shows that I want but don't think they stand a chance at this point.

Re: Is burn-on-demand the future?

This may be the only way that some of the 'forgotten' shows will ever see a release.

I've been wanting the 2 seasons of "Angie" to get released for years, and unfortunately, an on-demand deal is probably the only way it will. I think the show is owned by Paramount, so maybe there's hope.

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I'm not sure if it's the future - But perhaps something in tandom with ipod downloads and streaming video.

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it'll be interesting how this is done. It's easy to see that kid shows would be the one that receive the In-Store burning. You need to have that "gimme factor" and a burning center with ads for those shows will work best.

But for the most part, it seems like studios would prefer to go via on-line downloads simply to control the money stream. They don't want to wait for their revenue.

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Even though I am not interested in the list of shows available so far, I like this idea and hope other studios follow. It sounds similar to the deal Sony struck with HP that was reported a while back. If it gets rare shows available, I'm all for it.

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Since tvshowsondvd will not be keeping track of this, if anyone finds out about more shows available this way, please share.

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Why isn't TV Shows on DVD covering this again? They are official releases of TV shows to DVD by a reputable company. How is this any different than the Time Life exclusive offerings for Get Smart & Odd Couple and the Voltron pre-retail release coverage? For the most part, this is the only way that a lot of the remaining TV Shows on DVD will ever see a release legally.

Is there any way to find listings of these kinds of titles on Amazon at all? They don't seem to be classified on Amazon as something else so it is nearly impossible to find them.

Re: Is burn-on-demand the future?

Yeah, same here. I checked amazon but there is no separate category for these kinds of releases.

I agree. This is the only way that a lot of shows may be released. Not sure why they aren't covering. It's a new kind of release. It's of interest to tv-on-dvd collectors. I'll be looking for these kinds of releases if they become more apparent in the dvd market.

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I think this is, in theory, a great way to get obscure/less popular titles out on dvd. However, the problem with DVD-R is that it may or may NOT play on your machine(s), and also I am told that burned DVDs only last for 4-5 years. There goes the collectors' market.

Re: Is burn-on-demand the future?

For a well written article on DVD-R, see...

digitalFAQ.com | Blank DVD Media Quality Guide

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I have burned stuff here from six years ago that's still just fine. All depends on the quality of media you use. GIGO. (Garbage In, Garbage Out).

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I am all for this if it gets shows i am waiting on out there. I could care less if a studio officially presses them or amazon or anyone else burns them on demand. Heck i think it is in studios best interest to have a burn on demand setup themselves. Offer everything and only press what one needs. I dont even think many people will complain if you do not even clean them up. Alot of us just want to be able to see some of the gems we grew up with again.

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Paul: Aryn's thoughts are actually part of the problem Gord and I have with the whole concept. If "burn on demand" became the norm, then one of the problems we think we could see is that there would be little or no clean-up of the episodes...along with little or no bonus material, and obviously no special packaging (to the point where maybe we would just get 'em in a plain white envelope, or a cardboard sleeve at maximum). Why should the studios go to any trouble? It's almost TOO easy a solution.

It's like the idea of books on demand (which was actually being floated around quite a bit when I worked at a B. Dalton Bookseller about 20 years ago, and remains a concept even to this day): why fill up store shelves with books people may or may not buy? Just let someone order them from a catalog and they'll get it delivered in 4-to-6 weeks, as it is made special just for them. Heck, these days it would be a lot quicker than that, even cheaper than it would have been two decades ago, and now you could even just e-mail the customer a PDF file and let them laser-print it themselves at home. Why bother with bound books sold in stores at all?

You see what I mean, I hope. It cheapens the industry, and weakens it significantly.

Which brings me to another problem we have with it: it could ruin the experience of walking into a store and buying something. The whole "burn on demand" thing hasn't come up with a good enough arrangement yet that it could be do-able in a standard retail store. You pretty much have to get it from an online company at this time, like Amazon. While to some people that would be just fine, you also have to remember that NOT EVERY consumer is A) internet-connected, and B) credit-card-usable. People still like to, or could be restricted to, walking into a store and paying cash for this stuff. So if the product isn't available in a brick-and-mortar store, that's a problem for what is still a sizable segment of the population! Besides, I like to walk into a Best Buy or a Wal-Mart and shop around and see stuff I never thought of, pick up the back of a box and read it and decide if I want to do an impulse buy, etc. That experience would be gone with just about any type of indoctrinated burn-on-demand system.

Then we also come back to something I brought up in a thread that asked why TSoD doesn't cover sports releases, since they are shown on TV. Well, we gotta draw a line somewhere. Right now the place where this line is drawn will exclude burn-on-demand releases. Part of that reason is because of the vast amount of troubles consumers had with the early burn-on-demand releases (discs arriving empty, or with the wrong stuff on them, or not being compatible with their players/drives, etc.) and the whole thing just wasn't very reliable.

Now, if someone convinces us that the issues are all resolved, and this category is worth us reporting about, then we would have to figure out where we would re-draw the line. We still wouldn't cover sports, or news (including "newsmagazine" stuff like 60 Minutes or Nightline)...some of which are the most consistent sources of burn-on-demand releases. What about iTunes-type stuff (which we don't cover) if it's possible for the end-user to burn it to DVD-R's themselves. Should we cover THAT? I would say "no", but then we would certainly get an argument about it from some unhappy reader somewhere.

And studios that are presented with an opportunity to participate in burn-on-demand, and find the idea attractive, would probably find it even MORE attractive to go the "iTunes" type route of just presenting those un-cleaned-up episodes as digital downloads, and lower overhead costs even further. I mean, why bother with the physical media at all?

Why? Because the overwhelming majority of consumers still want physical media, not downloads. And they want it in nice packaging that they can show to (or "show off to") friends. So burn-on-demand doesn't present the best possible option, especially if the inserts LOOK like they were printed off at the last second rather than going through a professional printing process on glossy paper.

Some of you say, "Sure, TSoD should cover burn-on-demand!" But it's just not as simple as it sounds, is it?

Re: Is burn-on-demand the future?

I used to and to some extent still do care about packaging, extras.. But it has reached the point for me and i can only speak for myself. Where a plain white envelope is fine, just offer me the chance to buy the shows that are not going to be released anyway. That is all i can ask.. I don't see Blu-Ray as a place where classic TV can go and thrive. I think as the years go by now we are going to see less and less of it. I dunno, i just think there is way of doing this that benefits everyone involved.

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I think the future may be studios selling their shows direct over the net to the customer, cutting out the middleman, they wouldn't have to sell that many copies to make a profit. I would have thought that the big record companies would be doing that already. But these large companies are so slow on the uptake.

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yet at the same time you have ISPs attempting to limit Bandwidth.

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Thank you David Lambert! Somebody out there recognizes that not everone has broadband -- Me, for example. Sure, I'd like to have it, but Verizon has not installed whatever is necessary for DSL here, so there's nothing available on that venue. FIOS? Forget it! Cable? Not coming here. Satellite? Not reliable and very expensive. Wi-Fi? Not here.

So what's left? Why, dial-up at a rousing 26.4kbs!

Even if I did have broadband, I'm also one of those who won't buy "burn on demand" anyway. I want the full deal: DVDs that will last, in packaging that looks professional.

If burns on low-rent disks -- and you know the cheapest possible is what they'll be -- in plain white (brown?) wrappers is going to be the future, then my DVD-buying days will be over.

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While I like that experience, the problem is, with TV on DVD in regards to the shows that some of us like, we can not find them. This experience is already ruined. They are not on the shelves even if they are released and because of this they sell badly and future releases of them and similar shows via genre, period or obscurity also go unreleased. I shifted to online purchases, I can see myself doing this for the right shows. I do want them cleaned up, uncut and special featured on real DVDs in nice but not gimicky packaging but it has gotten to the point that some of these will almost certainly not come out under current conditions. I would rather buy burn on demand than an ipod download, to me, this is a step up from that. Relativity speaking the quality of this has got to be better than that, it has to stand up to viewing on actual televisions. As for box art, They should be able to offer some cover art, perhaps the disc top might not have anything, I don't know. It would be helpful if one of these releases were reviewed to serve as an example of what people would be getting. Unfortunately none of these shows interest me. Anyone purchasing one of these, please give us some details.

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I'm very interested in the Doug and Hey Arnold releases, but $30+ seems a little expensive for three DVD-Rs of material that could fit on one single regular DVD. I also hope the packaging isn't too cheap-looking. My birthday's coming up in a month so I may ask for one of the Doug releases although hopefully someone else will get a copy before that and let us know the details.

I understand why TVShowsOnDVD.com doesn't want to cover these and appreciate Dave's explanation, although I wouldn't mind seeing brief news items once a week/month simply listing whichever new titles are available even if they aren't listed in the database.

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I agree with you on this point,David. I'm not 100% convinced they've solved all these problems.

The Key problem is most of the burn-on-demand out there is it's done cheeply as possible on poorly made media. You can have the best duplicators out there and compatible players,but if the media is shoddy,then there's still isues.

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I appreciate so much that everyone up to this point pretty much understands and tends to agree with what I wrote, so thank you for being on the same page with me regarding that. It's a complicated situation!

I'd just like to comment on something Tory wrote:


Tory, I do see what you're saying regarding a large number of releases being difficult to find in stores. If you don't have a Best Buy near you (and sometimes even if you do), then you're not going to find the latest releases of the classic Doctor Who series at Circuit City, or at Wal-Mart or Target. Heck, you'll be lucky to find one or two copies of them, at full list price, at Borders or a record-type store such as FYE. If you want them, you have to go online to get them. And that's Doctor Who! The same goes for other stuff, too. How many places have you spotted Hell's Kitchen on the shelf? Tiny Toons? Banacek? The Wire? Around where I live, these pretty darn popular shows are scarce on store shelves (I've had friends/family complain to me about each, and looking around I see what they meant).

On the other hand, if burn-on-demand takes off, people interested in those titles will still be forced to buy them online, only to get a product of lesser all-around quality. Plus, if burn-on-demand is successful, why in the world wouldn't studios save money and use it for the bigger shows that CAN be found in stores? Legendary shows like I Dream of Jeannie, or Dallas, or Looney Tunes, or The Cosby Show, or Charmed, or 90210, or Twilight Zone, or I Love Lucy, or Peanuts? Enormously popular current shows like Battlestar Galactica, or The Simpsons, or Lost, or Pushing Daisies, or Heroes, or Grey's Anatomy, or 30 Rock, or CSI: Miami, or 24, or My Name is Earl, or Family Guy? Cult (and I use the term loosely here) shows like Firefly, or Sports Night (got a preview of the new set yesterday; it ROCKS!), or He-Man, or Get Smart, or Spaced, or Voltron, or Dark Shadows?

There are still an ENORMOUS number of TV-DVDs that can be found in just about any retail store. They dedicate huge chunks of floor space to it, and there's still not enough room (which is the problem with why they have to draw a line somewhere any unfortunately say "no" to stocking some of them).

Hey, can you imagine what the reaction of fans of the Buffy-verse would be if they couldn't walk into stores and find box sets of that show sitting on the shelve? Stargate fans? South Park? Me and my fellow Trekkies?

No, I'm not really in favor of this idea as being "the future". A niche product somewhere for the hardest-to-find items, maybe...but if they come in sleeves/envelopes, or in generic packaging that's no better than a generic case like the "Previously Viewed" Blockbuster items where they lost the original package for the disc, then I doubt I could display the thing with my collection of TV-DVDs. And I'd be worried that the data wouldn't be right on them, or that the low-quality discs DeWilson mentions might not last a lifetime.

And also, what's the resale value of these things if you want to eBay it? What about the gift-giving value...what would your father-in-law think of getting his favorite show on this for Christmas? And how would all of this affect Blu-ray? Hell, wouldn't it cripple the whole idea of packaged media? There really wouldn't be any "good" packaging, to speak of!

'Nuff said, at least for now.

Re: Is burn-on-demand the future?

Whether you believe them or not, here is the description of the quality of the burn-on-demand products being sold on Amazon:

CreateSpace - On-Demand Self Publishing, DVD on Demand, CD on Demand, Books on Demand, DVD Duplication and DVD Replication
For all the talk of poor-quality for burn-on-demand products, this description doesn't exactly scream poor quality to me. If fact, it directly addresses some of the main concerns I've seen:

1. They don't come in sleeves or generic boxes. They come in keep-cases that have full color covers.

2. They verify all recorded content. Meaning, you won't get a non-functional disc or a disc with missing data.

3. They use brand name DVD-Rs. It's true that some "brand names" are cheaper than other (in quality and/or price). However, the fact that they verify content certainly implies to me that it's not even an issue if they go cheap. The purpose of getting brand name is, primarily, to get a lower failure rate. If they are verifying the data, then they lose money if a burning fails, not me.

4. They even cellophane wrap them and give them UPCs. Gift giving and eBay selling don't seem to be out of the question.

Plus, the guide DeWilson noted goes over why recordable media isn't going to stop functioning any quicker than pressed media.

Would I rather see things released to retail stores and on press media? Of course I would. The packaging is usually better, there's competitive pricing, and the higher likelihood of good sales means more can go into making special features and restoration. Not to mention that some players are still not compatible with recordable media (VideoHelp.com's database indicates 93% of players are compatible with DVD-R). Plus, this is based on the quality of only one burn-on-demand company; it's likely there are others that don't take as much care. Like some have said, though, some titles simply won't make it to retail stores. For those titles, burn-on-demand seems like a reasonable option.

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I completely agree with you. And I also must say I don't think it makes a huge effect on store sales. This burn-on-demand concept would limit certain titles just like the recently-announced Nickelodean titles. I would save this concept for those rare shows that may never see the light of day on dvd otherwise. It makes it more profitable for the studios. The more mainstream titles can be saved for commercial releases whenever the studio decides to release them. I think it's a simple solution to everyone's hesitations about this concept and its effect on the retail marketplace.

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David, I just think you're letting your imagination get away from you. I propose that we take this issue up as a "wait and see" issue. I for one, volunteer to guinea pig and test these sets as they are released. I'm gonna order South of Nowhere and test it--see if the disc or packaging quality isn't very good...then I'll report back in this thread.

My gut feeling is that this is gonna take off. The listings in Amazon for these titles don't come across as amateurish or unprofessional. There are very nice-looking box covers for some of these releases. It doesn't sound like they're fooling around; they're not trying to put out cheap product to steal everyone's money. It sounds like they're addressing the collector's market for some of these dvds, and we need to give them the benefit of the doubt. Well, some of the dvds will be available in a few days. I've said all I have to say, until I actually watch one of these dvds.

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Physical media should only be used as a way of backup, not something that I would like to deal with every day.

I might as well use my HTPC to play my entire collection. Cases and covers are overrated these days, we see more people complaining about them rather than the contents inside.

Another benefit of such technology: many suppliers can't sell titles that are not available anymore (because they are out of print/stock).

No one wants to make less profit, from movie companies to ISPs, that's why I am not expecting any major improvement on that area.

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Ah! Don't take this the wrong way, but consumers like you are the wet dream of the people in the industry who are bean-counters (and want to eliminate the cost of packaging), and even moreso the industry execs who wish they could have more control over their films once sold to the home market, and would like nothing better than to use downloads packed with DRM to do it.

See, that's the ADVANTAGE of physical media over downloads. Let's take "The Devil's Advocate", starring Al Pacino, for example. If that was a film you had bought via download, then you would be stuck with whatever version is available to buy via download today. Which would be the changed version that removes scenes near the end where sculpted artwork became animated to emphasize what was going on with Pacino's character. In the "fixed" version there are some scenes where that is still visible over Pacino's shoulders, but have been blurred/unfocused so you can't make it out.

Why? Because the artwork used in the film was judged in a court to be a violation of the copyright held by a mega-church in Washington D.C. (called the National Church, IIRC). They own a sculpture, which they had commissioned and display in the church, which they proved in court was too substantially like the one in the film. So the studio had to do their best to remove the depiction of the rip-off sculpture, per the terms of the trial result. This was AFTER a DVD had been released, so new DVDs had to be issued with the changes. Old DVDs that were unsold up until then were recalled and destroyed, I think.

This story is told better elsewhere; consider this a "high-level" look at it.

But the bottom line is this: while there is no doubt in my mind that the court made the right decision, and while I support the position of the church to protect their copyright, there is also no doubt in my mind that the film was a better film WITH those scenes, than without.

With packaged media, people who wanted to were able to go to eBay and find a used copy of the original version of The Devils Advocate and own it, for all time, period. With downloads, you have no choice but to take what they give you. Whether it's edited for good reasons, like in this case, or for bad reasons like political correctness, you only get what they choose to give you. If they choose to give it to you at all; things that WERE available for download/purchase can STILL be "taken out of print" by removing it from the server. I wonder how many items aren't on iTunes any more that used to be?

And with downloads, you can't borrow it from your neighbor, or import a British or Japanese copy, or get it on the cheap from a used store. It's all controlled by the studio.

Which means that the people who really will profit once more are the people who bootleg, and the people who sell software that helps you get around DRM controls. Yippee-doodle.

Re: Is burn-on-demand the future?

did i miss something ? burn-on-demand = physical media and not downloads. That is why it is a very interesting aspect of the industry. A reason I have not used the Amazon inbox to get Hill Street Blues season 3 is the no media and quality issues. But this burn-on-demand offers physical media, packaging etc.. etc.. and hopefully good quality, which remains to be seen just yet granted. This should not be looked down upon, it should be embraced. It can be a way to distribute shows the studios would not otherwise see fit to release.

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Yes, thank you. My thoughts exactly. I'm sure there are a lot of one season wonders they could use for this new concept. Hopefully, more will be announced soon.

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I think we might still see a mainstream release for "Student Bodies". As I rediscovered watching "Victor Moves In" recently and then went on IMDb, "Stargate: SG-1" and "Stargate: Atlantis'" Joseph Mallozzi and Paul Mullie also worked on this series. Others that were also involved notably are: Mark Taylor who is currently on CTV/CBS' hit series "Flashpoint" (which is likely to get a second season), Miklos Perlus (who played "Peter Craig" in the earlier seasons of "Road to Avonlea"), Ross Hull ("Are You Afraid of the Dark?", which was highly-requested and is a big seller on DVD; remember he wasn't the only one from "Student Bodies" who put in appearance(s) on this popular series), Jennifer Finnigan (who has been in a bunch of things since "Student Bodies"), and Jamie Elman (who certainly has a fan following). And out of all of the shows you listed, this one has the most demand. Also, "Student Bodies" is getting renewed interest as it has been airing on Showcase.

I've already contacted two Canadian companies, and last night I asked Mr. Mallozzi on his weblog about a possible future release. If I hear anything, I'll pass it along.

EDIT: I just heard back from one of them. They have passed it along to their "acquisitions person for consideration."