More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Interesting thread (in AVS). I mean there are some guys saying (what we kinda expected), that the player adds too much "edge enhancement" and such, but then again some people are saying that "sharpens... without adding any distracting artifacts".

I would say, that we need professional reviews to fully compare this Toshiba to e.g. Oppo, etc.

One thing is still certain: Blu-ray, sleep well.

edit:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=230
I guess it´s using the "Zoran Vaddis 966" chip (more: post #166)... I´m not familiar with that, though.

edit2: Based on the thread, the player (US one, I assume) is actually NTSC and PAL. And you can easily get it to "region free". So this is all good news (I mean most of the US-players are "NTSC only").

"Region free via remote control:
- open the tray
- type 2403960
- press 9
- close the tray
- turn the player off and back on again"

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

I think he reason Blu-Ray may not become mainstream is:

1. Profiles. How many chances does it take to get it right?
2. Price of hardware for the Blu-Ray players other than PS3. Upconverting players are just that much cheaper, and not everyone wants a PS3 as their entertainment hub.
3. Price of Software(which has been a problem for all formats). Other than sales at Amazon, etc, prices are ridiculous.

Hopefully I'm wrong because I crave HiDef, unfortunately its on Blu-Ray.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

In all honesty, I hated that Blu-ray won the war, because everything I've read and seen made HD-DVD better on every level, including price.

That being said, Blu-ray's here, so I'll embrace that.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

That is a bold statement. LOL

I guess 50G is not better than 30G. I must have been asleep that day in math class.

Not to mention the transfer rates, ruggedness, future potential, etc....

From everything I read, the only thing HD-DVD had going for it was initial cost. This is simply becuase it was using existing technology instead of new tchnology like blu.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Really?

Everyone in "enthusiasts" forums like these that was serious about the future of packaged HI-DEF software should've supported HD_DVD, they not only had the best price to attract the masses but had the best weapon disguised in a "Trojan Horse", it was called the "Combo" disc. By now we could've easily been experiencing the fading away of DVD already.

Instead the "DownLoad" forces are steadily advancing while Blu sales are less than 8%, and here we are still talking about New DVD player hardware ...

What's that they say about reaping what you sowed..

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Scott,

HD-DVD had a hell of a lot going for it.

I have never made it a secret that although I loved Blu-ray I
was more partial towards HD-DVD. Though it didn't have the
50 gig capacity, at least it was network ready and did just about
everything it took Blu-ray almost two years to implement into
their systems. Since the inception of the format I have been forced
to buy two BD players since the originals were not profile 2 ready. Most
people who own original standalone players (outside of PS3) will be
forced to do the same as well.

I'm not bashing Blu-ray by any means, but certainly someone here
will take my words out of context and post otherwise somewhere else.
I have grown to enjoy and embrace Blu-ray. I just don't particularly
enjoy reading that all HD-DVD had going for it was its initial cost.
Speaking of which, there are many of us here that wish the BD camp
would further lower the prices of their players. I would love to see
this format kick into fourth gear for the holiday season.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Alfonso;

In this case, I am super dooper glad HD-DVD failed. Combo discs are just as bad as double sided dvds. I think that combo discs help HD-dvd lose.


Ron;

You are correct in the fact that Blu-Ray was a little rushed (had to get to market before they were ready) and has taken a while to stablize. The only thing I would mention is that Blu-Ray is a new technology so it seems fair that it might take longer to get running smooth. Being first doesnt mean better.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

I have a bunch of them here, no problemo what so ever...and the couple that did, were quickly and effortlessly replaced for FREE!!!...


Here using your own words to show how bias you are..

You are willing to cut all kinds of slack to Blu as "New Technology" but can't and couldn't possibly ever considered the same for the HD-DVD Combo disk...

Post like yours are why I don't believe 80% of what I read in these forums any longer....at any level!!!!!

Poster like you have shattered the confidence in the opinions expressed around these and other forums, and is plain as day light for anyone to see....

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Listen guys...

The format war is over.

We could talk all day about what could have been, what should
have been...but in the end we should be grateful we have one format.

Besides, this forum has already made a mission statement that
we are moving forward, eliminating format war discussions.

To get back to the topic at hand, let's discuss Blu-ray and the affect
that this new Toshiba upconverting player will have on it (which
seems to be no affect at all).

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Not owning either format means that during that war, I had no stake in either side. I just researched and experienced what each had to offer thankfully without paying a cent, and HD-DVD, using that existing technology that had already been proven to be reliable unlike the newer, unproven Blu-ray, looked superior to me.

But that's me.

Looking at the many initial disc reviews of each format and how lackluster the Blu-ray titles were in comparison, in addition to seeing some of the players in action, also swung me toward HD-DVD.

But as I said, it lost, Blu-ray won, and that's that. I'll embrace this format wholeheartedly when I can afford to. If all pans out, that will be within the next month or so.

One more thing, if that sense of 'mine's better than yours...and yours plain stinks loser' mentality was what the format war was all about when discussed on forums like this, I'm glad I had nothing to do with it. It's petty, and I have nothing but contempt for that kind of nonsense.

But that's me.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

And while we're still a bit in a "war" mood (although it seriously has to stop now), here's another thought:


Don't follow those links to AVS too readily, because you may get stuck there.
That's true: they don't allow links to our forum, even actively remove them from posts! So you might not be able to come back here. We would hate that.


I must say I was very surprised to learn this, but I have been assured it's a fact.
(Well, except the "get stuck" part. )

(End of war-talk, start of normal HTF talk.)


Cees

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Really? Now that´s weird.. And sad.

In any case, this new Toshiba seems to be a lot of noise over nothing (well, very little). I mean you´re better off with e.g. several years old Oppo, let alone quality Blu-ray-players that can...

a) Play also SD DVDs and do quality upscaling (e.g. with PS3 excellent)
b) Play Blu-ray-discs.

Adding some artificial "edge enhancement" is pretty much what we all should avoid here (hence e.g. recent DNR, EE discussions). You can´t make "Nissan" (and I have one!) to look "Ferrari", not even with some phony custom-job.

To me: Case closed.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

It seems to me that there are two different approaches to the discussion of these players. One, those who are HD capable already won't have any use for them. Two, people are wondering if they (or similar and similarly marketed products) will hurt or slow down adoption of Blu-Ray.

I think the people in the first group should not be so quick to dismiss Toshiba's rather clever marketing idea. For the average Joe, Blu-Ray may just be starting to be interesting enough to possibly invest in, in terms of software selection and affordability of hardware. I'm sure that the Christmas season will drive Blu-Ray adoption.

However, Blu-Ray is currently unable to fulfill many of the promises the format holds. This will change in the future, but at the moment the Toshiba players are certainly appealing to some people. And those people will not be in any hurry to adopt Blu-Ray once they've invested in a new XDE DVD player.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Jari, to you the case may be closed, but to a lot of people the XDE is an easy solution to possibly make their SD DVDs look better.

It's actually not different from people spinning SD DVDs in their computer drives, using ffdshow or similar software to tweak the picture (yes, adding edge enhancement!), and outputting the result to a front projector. Those people call themselves enthusiasts who want the best possible quality from their SD DVDs. It's not difficult to understand that the average Joe would want to do the same, with less effort.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Yes, that´s why I said "for me".

I think one important point here is, that will this "additional EE" (and some other "player tweaks") "make their SD DVDs look better" or actually just "worse" (unnatural "video look", etc)? Additional sharpness is not always = better (especially when the player provides that "additional sharpness" - it´s not "in the disc/transfer").

So I guess a whole lot of this depends on the viewer. Is something actually "better" vs some other player is not very "black & white"-issue. Comments from the forums might mean very little, especially in the world of magical upscaling/anti-BD (let´s face it, some of the hardcore HD DVD supporters moved "back to DVD")... That´s why I kinda want to read a proper - and non-biased reviews and such.

I don´t need any more "EE" or some fancy "tweaks" from the menu. I just want quality upscaling (which I already have, I have PS3 and Toshiba).

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

I really don't believe that the average Joe cares enough about that. The average Joe is going to invest in Blu-Ray because HD is the rage and since the average Joe tends to not have a lot of money for purchases, will not want to buy another DVD player; especially one that is expensive - i.e. you can buy upscaling DVD players at Costco/BJ's for real cheap - granted they probably don't upscale as well, but J6P doesn't care because he either can't tell the difference or won't want to spend the money for something that isn't considered "The Best" (meaning HD is "The Best")

Also the fact that Blu-Ray can also play SD-DVD's, the average Joe (who is unaware of the lack luster upscaling performance of SD-DVD) will want to get a Blu-Ray player because he either:

A) Only has one HDMI input on his TV
B) Doesn't want (or have space for) 2 players
C) Doesn't want to pay for all the cabling involved in hooking up two players.

etc. etc.


XDE is really for the enthusiast or someone who isn't ready for Blu-Ray and needs a new SD-DVD player. I really can't see J6P having much interest in this player.

And FYI: I'm not basing the above on my knowledge, I'm basing it on what I tend to hear from family members, friends, and others.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

I do the EXACT same thing, only I output to my TV.

I don't even need to use the ffdshow's sharpening technique as the resolution itself is better than all my stand-alone DVD players.

Problem is simplifying the whole method of using the TV, and for me the solution lies in a wireless mouse. THAT would make this so much easier that I'd use my computer output more often.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

I'm confused, is an 'average Joe' or a 'Joe 6 pack' someone who:

1. Isn't wealthy enough to afford these things

2. Isn't educated enough on the whole SD-HD-BR-DVD issue

3. Both

?

I certainly fall into number 1 but know all about them so I can't be in number 2.

Trying to figure out if I am considered to me beneath some of the people here, if it's a status / elitist issue.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Nicholas; My feeling is that J6P is about level of knowledge and buying habits more than about the ability to buy.

So you fit in here just fine.

The one thing about the Edge Enhancing player is that you have to already have a HD tv to use it. So, in my book, if you have already bought the biggest ticket item, why not spent $100 more (than the Toshiba player) to get a profile 1.1 BD player? They don't have to get a profile 2 player. After all the toshiba isn't profile 2 either, so they must not want the online stuff anyway.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

To me Joe6P just watched movies. he doesnt give a damn about presentation. He doesnt care if its widescreen, or even in 5.1 surround. You know how many people dont have that yet? He wants a color movie that shouldnt be any older than six months. He wants to kill 2 hours. If the movie is any good (and thats optional, by the way) all the better, cause he might buy it at Wal-Mart when it hits $3.99...maybe. To me, that is what Joe Six Pack is.

This is our hobby, we dont watch movies to kill time. Not all the time anyway. We watch movies for the same reason you might drink fine wine.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

I go through the bargain bins at Walmart from time to time.

If I hadn't I never would have gotten ALL the 2-disc "Star Trek" collector's edition DVDs for only $5 each.

That's a bargain!

Typically those bins are full of fullscreen titles, but you get lucky sometimes and stumble onto something genuine.


For me, unless it's the most extreme of circumstances (ANGEL season 2 and its aspect ratio oddity) it's OAR or nothing.

I love 5.1, I adore DTS, but it's not always the deal breaker. 2.0 through Pro Logic has surprised me many times.

If all pans out, I won't have to get an upconverting player ( from the looks of things I wouldn't buy this XDE) and I'll be Blu-ray bound.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Anyone remember Enhanced Definition TVs?

A way to get "close to" HD material without "spending as much" on an HD television.

When J6P started sniffing around about HD TVs he found out "why not just go ahead and get the real thing". So ED TVs are nowhere to be found now.

When he starts sniffing around about playing HD discs on his HD TV, the same things going to happen.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

I think they were just a way to get a Flat Panel screen without paying the HD prices of the time.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Historical note: FOX TV was EDTV before they went HD. ABC was 720 before they moved to 1080I.

I have been in homes where folks have a REALLY nice HDTV and have it set up so the images are stretched...or too long. They don't have a clue.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

That's exactly my interpretation of J6P.

I use my family and friends as an example...my mother and brother both watch regular TV (on their 16x9 TV's) in 'stretch' mode even after I've explained the reasons not to...they still like it this way because, as they say, "I like when it fills the screen".

My brother also has a pro-logic sound system and won't buy a digital receiver (even though he can afford it) because he thinks his current amp sounds great. But the reason he thinks it sounds great is because it's loud. It has nothing to do with clarity or purity. To him; Loud = Good.

Those are just a few...So for me, the definition is not exactly about not being able to afford the stuff; it's more about not wanting to spend the money on it because they just don't care about what the extra $$ will get them. They just want to 'watch stuff'.

Nicholas, I bet if I gave you $1,000 that you'd love to spend it on new HT equipment, whereas J6P would think it was "a waste of money".

And while there are plenty of J6P's who don't have a lot of money to spend, that doesn't mean that everyone (who doesn't have the money) is a J6P.

-a J6P looks at a $1,000 reciever and thinks "Who the hell is dumb enough to pay that kind of money for a reciever"

-an enthusiast (without any money) looks at a $1,000 receiver and thinks "I can't afford that, but if could, I would buy that."

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

If I had a grand, I'd spend half on the most affordable HD-ready receiver, and the other half on a PS3 and a couple of movies.

The only receivers I really know anything about are Pioneer Elite and Denon, and those are over $1000.

I can't afford a VSX-94 (at nearly $2000) but if I could, I would most certainly buy that. Sure, the remote is a bitch to deal with (I've set a few of them up) and it's as heavy as a cinderblock, but it does everything you want it to and is oh so pretty on a shelf.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

When did ABC move from 720p to 1080i? If that has happened, I was totally unaware of it.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Wow. When is the format war talk going to quit resurfacing? You have absolutely no concrete evidence to suggest that the "Combo disc" would have given HD DVD any sort of leg up in destroying the market for DVD. They were expensive as hell and a lot of time didn't work properly in Toshiba's players.

The market for HD discs would more than likely be in the same state as it is now, no matter which format won.

Edit: Sorry Ron and Cees. I posted this before I saw your following posts regarding the "War talk". It just annoyed me to read this. Like it or not, BD won and some people need to finally get over it. The same result would have been required if the shoe had been on the other foot.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

To tell the truth, it doesn't surprise me at all, considering that there is a fair amount of bashing of AVS and its members going on at times here.



Normally I don't like using the terms JoeSixPack or J6P when referring to non-enthusiasts since it sounds demeaning; however, I would consider a "J6P" to be a person who is unconcerned with the subtleties of home theater. My sister would be a case in point. Her interest in quality presentations of film or TV shows consists of turning on the TV and the stereo. Picture and sound comes out and that is good enough for her. She is happy as long as she can watch endless reruns of "Law and Order".

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

I guess we have (roughly) three type of groups here:

1) Blu-ray/high definition-fans. They want 1080p, lossless-audio and generally quality releases. Extras too. Now that the "war" is ancient history, most people belong to this group here (even when many of those supported HD DVD back then). Some kept their HD DVD-player and are enjoying also those older releases. As long as the quality is good (and 1080p).

These people can enjoy their old SD DVDs also, no question, but if 1080p-version is available...

2) Joe 6 pack. Doesn´t care about the latest Blu-ray-players, receivers and such, only want to watch some movies. Hell, perhaps still has a 4:3-TV and if has 16:9-TV, it´s probably not calibrated at all ("straight from the box from Best Buy"). These people are not "stupid" or anything, they just don´t really care. Give them DVD, cable, pan&scan, widescreen, DNR, EE, 5.1, stereo, mono, whatever. As long as everything is easy, fun and cheap. 150-200$ for ANY player is a max. "BluE-ray, what´s that? Hey, I can see Robocop DVD in a bargain bin for 5$, gimme gimme". No time to watch "any silly extras".

Still, Joe 6 pack can be a huge "movie buff", perhaps loving movies more than some of us here. Technical issues and latest equipments are not just something that are very important to J6P..

When people are arguing about the "grain pattern of Miami Vice" in the net, Joe 6 pack is actually watching "Miami Vice". ...and loving/hating THE FILM, not the presentation.

3) Hardcore DVD-supporters. They want the "best" in the world of SD DVDs, but doesn´t care about Blu-ray. "Too expensive", "not enough extras", "upscaling gives almost HD", "don´t want to buy my collection again", "HD DVD was bettah", "the thrill is gone" (my favourite remark when the "war" ended, btw... ), "Blu-ray is not for the masses", etc etc.

You don´t want Blu-ray, but you have 1080p-set? Upscaled DVD!

Sadly, it seems that "anti-BD"-people (who kinda "pop-up" when they want to say something negative about BD - justified or not) also kinda belong to that group, since DVD is now their "only option" (this talk has now evolved to that "close to HD"-upscaling talk... - they have to trick themselves to believe, that "upscaled DVD" IS "close to HD").

So I guess Toshiba has aimed their new DVD-player to "groups 2 & 3".