More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

First, I need to apologize for the subject title.

About a year ago, there was much speculation regarding a
DVD player that Toshiba had been working on. Early word was
that this player would be able to take standard DVD to a level
of high definition. These rumors were so rampant that even
the press dubbed this player a "Blu-ray killer."

It has been very difficult to get any information out of Toshiba
regarding this new player. We are planning to see this player
in another two weeks while out at CEDIA. In the meantime, I
found an article which more or less calms the waters regarding
speculation on what this new DVD player is all about.

Click Here For Article

Please read the above article before moving on to my comments....

For me, the most interesting passage in the entire article is
as follows...


This pretty much says it all. The fact that Toshiba would not
demonstrate this technology side-by-side with a Blu-ray picture
shows that the company doesn't feel the upconversion is even
comparable.

I will say that I am very excited about any technology that improves
upon DVD and has the ability to do better upconverting than current
players. It's sort of hard to imagine how much better you can make
upconverted DVD look (I think it looks fantastic already), and for that
reason I am very excited about being one of the first to see a demo
of the new Toshiba player. Will have more to report on this in our
CEDIA coverage.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Ron,

Thanks for the info and the link!

A lot of us just wish that Toshiba would build a Blu-ray player with this technology built-in. And perhaps they will some day. In the meantime, it's at least somewhat gratifying that they're not even trying to position the player as a substitute for Blu-ray.

Here's a link to another article that makes that very clear:

Toshiba Debuts ‘Near-HD’ DVD - 8/18/2008 4:01:00 AM - TWICE

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

I had to laugh this morning at this quote in an article on CrunchGear about what Toshiba is saying about the new picture quality improvement over current upconverting.


And another interesting quote in the link that Ron posted is this:


Sounds like edge enhancement to me. LOL

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Here's another intriguing quote from the TWICE article:


So whatever chip they've popped into this player doesn't even have enough processing power to run all three of these new algorithms simultaneously.

This sounds like Toshiba marketing went to engineering and requested something new that they could use to generate a little buzz about SD DVD players. And this is what they came up with

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

What I'd like to see is a demonstration of a standard def movie upconverted in the player versus, for example, that same disc upconverted in the new Sony S350. I want to compare upconversion to upconversion, not to Blu Ray quality. The less- than -enthusiastic view of the S350's treatment of standard def (of which, like most of us, I have a large library) is what is holding me back from this new Blu-Ray player.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

This gives me flashbacks to the HQ chip developed for VHS VCRs back in the mid-80s to prevent SuperBeta from gaining market share (as if that was ever a possibility....).

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Read about this in the newspaper this morning. I don't mind that it is just a subtle improvement because that is generally all you see when comparing different upscaling players to each other. It is all a matter of degrees. To me the problem is that most general consumers don't often notice those differences . It is the enthusiast that sees the differences and they will most likely have or will be planning to get Blu-ray. I'll probably just stick to my XA2 (or PS3) for upconversion. I am still curious to hear what you think of it Ron when you get to see it in action.


It worked!

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

**"Louis Masses (director of product planning for the audio and video group at Toshiba America Consumer Products) was careful to stress that it's not meant to compete with or replace Blu-ray."**

Wise words. Let´s hope, that the discussion now begins to steer from the "near HD quality" to "quality upscaling". The latter just might be true.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Assuming for the moment that this is the best upconverting player ever made; the correct strategy would still be to release a second player that incorporates these features AND plays BluRay. This second player, that plays both, should be around MSRP $300.

Why invent "the best upconversion technology" and only put it into a stand-alone player that can't do BluRay? If you can sell everyone on the idea that you have unique unconversion technology you can convince everyone to choose your brand of BluRay player. What BluRay adopter is going to by this Toshiba player in addition to a BluRay player already upconverts pretty well?

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Depends how big your grudge is.

[J6P]I gots a 3-car grudge.[/J6P]

Seriously, Toshi is playing its cards pretty close to its chest with this "revised" announcement. It'll be interesting to see if Toshi is willing to eat crow and introduce a BD player.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

what's laughable here is the quote

"who is investing in a DVD system in 2008?"

Typical elitist comments posted along the lines of others postings in here, especially given the fact that the great majority of consumers --even those purchasing Hi-def screens-- are not even considering Blu Ray at all..

What's is really sad about this reports is that 6 months after the war ended not fully compliant Blu players are still selling for at least 400.00 a pop at retail outlets, a fact that Toshiba is trying to exploit by introducing this alternative.

By this time Blu Ray players should've been the only choice for Hi-DEF screens owners, but consumers are not biting.....wonder why ?? ....

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Exactly why I said that Toshiba should include their new upconversion technology IN a BluRay player AND undercut the price with an MSRP of $300. If they would swallow their pride about loosing the war they could have the best selling BluRay player around (assuming their unconversion technology lives up to the hype).

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Except, why should they undercut the other prices? It's not like HD DVD where they have definite long-term gain from doing so. I'd love it if Toshiba were to do what you suggest, as I'm very happy with my HD-A1 and the Toshiba TV it's hooked up to, but they're at a disadvantage in terms of licensing costs to Sony, and I don't think the average consumer cares enough about a company's history that Toshiba needs to re-establish its brand post-HD DVD.

Personally, I want the technology in my DVR or TV most of all. My digital cable channels need better upconversion, too.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

I would really like to know how this new Toshiba compares to the Oppo DV-983H. I'm about to pull the trigger on one of those.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

I know saw that the article says that it is meant to improve DVD quality but this is my take. Didn't Toshiba earlier basically say they intended to take on Blu-ray with this technology, that this product was going to match HD?

I could be way off on this but it is starting to sound like Toshiba has been experience some backlash over there insistence of making a DVD player that can best a HD player. One would have thought that Toshiba would have gotten over there loss in the high definition war with Sony. But IMHO Toshiba is only prolonging there embarrassment by chasing after this current project, a standard definition player that can match a high definition player. A player that would keep Toshiba collecting royalties if it could succeed, but the sad part is that Toshiba thinks it is possible. Now this is not to say that this technology can not improve the image quality of standard definition video. But IMHO Toshiba only pursued this technology because they wanted to make Sony pay for them being embarrassed and loosing the revenue stream that was HD-DVD.

I am wondering if Toshiba will now down play there super dvd player at CEDIA? If this player has not achieved what Toshiba previously claimed it would. Toshiba could very well start backing off of this technology or if they do not they may switch gears and sell it as a way to improve current upconverting technology. IMHO the longer Toshiba stays out making a Blu-ray player the more likely it will end up having negative effect on them. Toshiba is the only one that is flat out refusing to offer a Blu-ray player. It will be interesting to see how Toshiba pursues this technology at CEDIA this year. Will they pursue it or down play it and hope that people quickly forget about it?

Because of Toshiba's behavior I do not even want to buy anything from them anymore. If I was not interested in keeping and enjoying my HD-DVD library I would dump my Toshiba player. I most likely will not be buying anything from Toshiba in the near future. I am very interested in hearing about what happens at CEDIA regarding this technology though. If the technology actually works in improving DVD's over what is available now, that will be great. But if they are actually trying to undermine Blu-ray I hope this move comes back and bites them hard.



Maybe when Toshiba comes up with there next format to take the place of 1080p Blu-ray. Maybe Toshiba can work the term Blu-ray killer into there advertising, ROFL.

Got to love the title of the article as well, I thought it was humorous.

"Forget HD-DVD: Toshiba focuses on plain old DVD".

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

We need to remember that Toshiba never billed this as a BD killer, the internet did. I have been told by sources that it does a better job than the upconverters in the HD DVD players did. The scaler will also be in some of the new TVs--that is where it will do the most good.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

The key for better SD DVD output is deinterlacing; it's far more important than scaling. None of the Toshiba players ever had what could be considered good deinterlacing other than the XA2 which used the Reon chipset. I highly doubt this unit will deinterlace to the degree of ABT, Reon, Realta, etc.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Even the highly touted XA2?

A bit off topic:

I thought they were planning to bring out new TVs using the cell processor. Has this changed? I assume this is not the processor in this player that is going to be in their new sets.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Another story this morning here

I agree with those that say that this player is only going to confuse
the market even further and prevent some people to jump to the BD
format knowing they could make their existing DVDs look better.

On the plus side, this may force the BD camp to lower the price of
players which I feel are a bit overpriced. If you really want to steer
people towards BD and put these contenders to rest you need to make
the price of hardware and software more attractive to consumers.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

My DVD collection is tiny in comparison to most, and going through them revealed that I would upgrade maybe six titles:

-Independence Day
-Batman Begins
-Spider-Man (trilogy box set)

As well as a couple more if and when they are released on BD:
-Braveheart (rumored for a January 20, 2009 BD release)
-Firefly TV series
-Serenity

And then would buy new titles like some of this summer's big movies.

So, obviously I'm looking to get an upconverting player but they are the one new piece of home theater technology I have very little experience with, and therefore don't really know first hand how impressive it is supposed to be. I know Blu-ray and HD-DVD despite not owning either, but upconverting DVD players are an unknown.

ARE they really all that better?

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

According to this link:

Toshiba XD-E500 Upconverting DVD Player Released Today - VideoHelp.com

The machines are now in stores.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Upscaling DVD (/Blu-ray)-players compared to non-upscaling players? Or..?

I guess most new(er) DVD/Blu-ray-players now upscale, but some do a better job of this than others. It´s also part of the "marketing hype", so don´t believe every marketing slogan. Wait for the reviews, etc.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

From the Scooter´s link (actually: Toshiba XD-E500 Upconverting DVD Player Announced )...

"Toshiba today announces its new video enhancement technology for DVD with the introduction of the XD-E500. XDE, or "eXtended Detail Enhancement," is more than just DVD upconversion. XDE takes DVD picture quality to a whole new level. In addition to providing upconversion from 480i/p up to 1080p, XDE offers user selectable picture enhancement modes that allow for greater detail, more vivid colors and stronger contrast that bring standard DVD quality closer to the HD experience. XDE technology lets consumers enjoy their existing DVD libraries in a whole new way."

Other quotes ("XDE"):
Note: Please still read the whole link - these are just quotes..

**"Sharp Mode offers improved detail enhancement that is one step closer to high definition. Edges are sharper and details in movies are more visible. Unlike traditional sharpness control, XDE technology analyzes the entire picture and adds edge enhancement precisely where it's needed."

Wow. "Adds edge enhancement precisely where it's needed".

**"Color Mode makes the colors of nature stand out with improved richness. Blues and greens are more vivid and lifelike. Color Mode combines the improvement in color with the detail enhancement of Sharp Mode and is ideal for outdoor scenes."

Wow. "Ideal for outdoor scenes".

**"Contrast Mode is designed to make darker scenes or foregrounds more clearly visible without the typical "washing out" that can occur with traditional contrast adjustment. Recommended for dark scenes where detail may be difficult to notice, Contrast Mode is also combined with Sharp Mode to provide a clearer viewing experience.

Wow. "Recommended for dark scenes".

Sorry, but I just find this rather funny. And I just mentioned "marketing slogans".. Well, interesting to read proper reviews...

Some specs also here:
http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvd/prod...?model=xd-e500

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Yes, I'm wondering if upconverting DVD players are really all that much better than a basic DVD player, because I have no experience with them.

I have a simple, inexpensive Panasonic DVD-S43 connected to my 42" and that gives me a great picture, so that's why I am so interested in an upconverting player because I'm getting something great as it is and can only get better from here, I hope.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

This is going OT soon, I guess, but... Is your TV "HDTV"? If yes, then your TV-set is doing the upscaling (since your DVD-player can´t). Most people prefer these stand-alone players (with this I mean both DVD and Blu-ray, since Blu-ray-player also upscales SD DVDs) when it comes to upscaling, since they´re usually doing a better job.

Main point: With HDTV, upscaling is unavoidable. If your DVD-player won´t upscale, the HDTV eventually will (to its "native resolution", 1080i, 1080p..). So you kinda have to figure out, which one (DVD/Blu-ray-player or TV) does a better job with upscaling.. Usually stand-alone player, I guess.

If your TV is NOT "HDTV" (=it´s normal TV, with standard resolution), then you don´t need any "upscaling" for SD DVDs.

More info e.g. here:
Video scaler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

My TV does 1080i, not 1080p. HD cable looks great, standard TV looks like garbage (as it always does on HDTVs) and I guess I will have to just wait and see what the consensus is about this specific XDE player, and if it's any better than the cheaper upconverters out there.

I've seen exactly one upconverting DVD player, and regardless of the setting, the image looked the same. I demo'ed an LG model and spent more than an hour with it, tweaking the player and the TV itself (not my TV, this was in a store I worked in for a few months) and it never improved.

Contrast that with all these opinions about a brand name player called "Oppo" and how great it is compared to other brand players, and it just gets more and more complicated.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

My personal opinion is, that if you´re looking for a new "upscaling" player (and you already have a "HDTV"), it´s best to get a Blu-ray-player. They also play and upscale SD DVDs. Then you´ve both formats.

DVD players are of course cheaper, but that would be the only real reason to choose DVD-player over Blu-ray-player now.. IMO. Quality (upscaling) is of course important subject, but e.g. PS3 has almost "reference quality" when it comes to upscaling, if you ask me. So Blu-ray-players are doing a pretty good job with that department.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Oh, if it weren't for all the veterinary bills for my two Schnoodles I'd have a PS3 in a split second.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

Interesting thread and that interests me. I will admit having a soft spot for Toshiba. ...but I do agree this technology would be FANTASTIC in a Blu-ray player. Because lets face it, most if not all Blu-ray players are rather poor at dvd playback. And for the record, I've owned the Sony S1, s300, s500, Panasonic BD30 and my current player is the Sony ES2000-to me the most elegant and best Blu-ray player.

All wonderful with Blu-rays but lacking with sd-dvd. I use my Toshiba A-35 that utilizes the underrated Anchor Bay chip. Much better at dvd playback on my rig...

I still might bite on this but I really don't want to invest in any machine that 'just' does sd-dvd. I've only bought 2 sd-dvds since April 2006! and truthfully I seem to only watch HD-DVD or Blu-ray these days.

Toshiba really needs to just hunker down and develop a Blu-ray player that incorporates this new sd-dvd improvment.

I think most of us are looking for that player that can do both formats well.

Re: More information coming to light regarding Toshiba's new "Blu-ray killer"

The other BIG --HUGE IMO---reason to consider (up-converting players) is whether one is willing to fork out around $30.00 for a Blu Ray title (or spent half a day constantly searching for online deals if any ) that's available many times at retail shops for less than half the Blu ray price.

Well mastered up-converted SD-DVD look superb in both my HI-DEF screens, and although my HD-DVD versions look better, definitely not TWICE as good to justify paying TWICE as much for the Blu Ray title.

And as far as Audio, …...unless you have the hearing of Bats and/or are willing to invest on the latest flavor of Hi-FI gear and engage in extravagant setups, Dolby 5.1 (or 7.1) and DTS is more than enough for mere mortals…. and it has been for 10 years now.