The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Aspect ratio from Apocalypse Now Redux info

The aspect ratio of this matte, as chosen by the film's cinematographer, Vittorio Storaro, is 2:1, cropping some of the side of the original 2.40:1 anamorphic image. This controversial decision was intended to be a compromise between proper wide-screen framing and the relatively limited resolution of NTSC video. (The cropping did come back to haunt them in one scene where a character outside of the visible frame was speaking unbeknownst to the crew during the sound edit and mix. One cheated line and printmaster fix later, all was well.)


Has some relevance to the discussion.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

This is not true and was not the main reason this change was made. It's not counterintuitive because it really wasn't the issue.

The actual issue was that Superscope prints only used optical sound tracks and ALL optical prints, both CinemaScope 2.35:1 and SuperScope 2.00:1 have a different image center line from 2.55:1 4 track Magnetic only prints.

This caused problems that required shifting the image horizontally by physically moving the projector to maintain the proper image centering any time that the theater had to change from running a 2.55:1 4 track Mag print to an optical print. It even caused centering issues for the newsreels, previews, cartoons, etc that were optical prints when the feature was a 4 track Mag 2.55:1 print.

All of this was in the early days before the Magoptical print standard was created that reduced the AR of CinemaScope from 2.55:1 to 2.35:1 and standardized the image center line for all formats.

Even more interesting, if you were to look at an early optical sound Cinemascope print, you will find often find that the image is off center, because the labs didn't even attempt to re-center the 2.55:1 image to match the optical print standard centerline before covering the left side of the image with the optical track.

Many of the theaters in the Consolidated chain in Hawaii had 3 projectors installed in the projection booth that allowed one of the projectors to remain on the optical centerline while the other two were positioned to maintain propeer centering for 2.55:1 Mag only engagements.

Vern

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Indeed, David. Mostly in that it shows how Storaro has decided to change the aspect ratio (for home viewing) of some of the films that he shot before he switched over to his 2:1 format. Certainly The Last Emperor is not alone in this decision.

Whole threads have discussed Storaro's decisions regarding both Apocalypse Now AND TLE. A simple search will yield those threads to you.

A difference, however, may be that we are now talking about his rationalization for taking this step in the context of these films now being viewed on the substantially better resolution of high-definition media. If you read the .pdf posted earlier in this thread which outlines Storaro's decision on these issues, you'll see part of his concern is that home equipment cannot adequately replicate the look of his wide-screen films so he has decided that they should be cropped from their theatrical presentation aspect ratio to something smaller for home viewing.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Yes, of course. My point kinda was, that people like you and me would like to have the original, theatrical aspect ratio, but some people are defending Storaro´s decision and accept the cropped aspect ratio. In the end, not sure what else we can say in this thread that would really make "a difference".

Storaro saying (after many many years), that now suddenly "2.00:1 is the OAR" means nothing at least to me. But - it´s enough for many other people.


This just tells, how Storaro is letting the "home video viewing" have affect on his decisions (about the aspect ratio). Yes, 2.35:1 ratio has big-ass black bars via 4:3-TV. Yes, 2.35:1 ratio has black bars via 1.78:1-TV. Yes, but: So what? Only guys worried about that are Storaro and a couple of "joe six-packs" out there. Rest of us are enjoying the glorious widescreen ratio - via 4:3 or 1.78:1-screen. Perhaps mr. Storaro should too?

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

And all this still wouldn't explain why Storaro won't allow us to have a choice between 2 versions of these films (MAR and OAR), if he's just worried about the adequacy of the home viewers' display. We're not even talking about some bland, generic, studio compromised offering here, but something from Criterion that would be targeted at enthusiasts.

RE: the answers about what crops may be acceptable and what not, aside from absolutes in principle, I'd argue that there are definitely some shots that will be significantly altered/compromised due to the aesthetics of the shots (and had provided a few examples in a couple posts I made in the older SD thread), not just a matter of talking heads being cropped out, especially since we are talking about a film that garnered big praises/award(s) for cinematography. I'm pretty sure you don't win those just for keeping talking heads in the protected area.

_Man_

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

In my opinion awards, particularly the Academy Awards really don't mean a whole lot with regard to what is and what is not high art when it comes to photography.

Take 1982 when Gandhi won and Blade Runner wasn't even nominated. Not to take anything away from Gandhi which is a beautiful film, but in my opinion Blade Runner was the superior effort that year and to not even be nominated just shows yet again how irrelevant the Academy Awards are.

Doug

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

For you and many people perhaps, but many will also disagree with you.

It´s pretty much impossible to pick up just "one" film to begin with and how can you compare the look of "Gandhi" to "Blade Runner"? So every award in the end is a "compromise" at its best. But still not "irrelevant", IMO.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Gandhi as I said is a beautiful film, but it surely doesn't break new ground or make any attempt to do anything new. Blade Runner was pushing the limits and created something never before put on screen in quite the same way. Why would Tootsie be nominated and not Blade Runner.

I'm not saying that it should have won over Gandhi, but the fact that it wasn't even nominated shows the very limited imagination of most of the members of the Academy.

The Academy Awards are more often than not chosen by the members based on what they thought was either "important" or political (meaning is it someone's turn to win) not based on artistic merit.

With some exceptions most best picture winners are for the most part forgotten or forgettable films. For instance, 1933 King Kong, arguably one of the greatest films ever made was not nominated for an oscar, that year Cavalcade won. A film that has not held up well with time and most people have never heard of.

1941, the winner was How Green Was My Valley, a very good film and worthy of winning, but Citizen Kane was not even nominated.

Add to this the fact that someone of the caliber of Alfred Hitchcock can make some 60 odd films and never once win a best director award is shameful.

Frankly the only thing the Academy is good for is putting a few extra bucks into the box office of the winning film.

Doug

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Doug, keep in mind that while the entire Academy membership votes on the final awards, the nominations are made only by the individual branches, so if the cinematography of BLADE RUNNER wasn't nominated by the Academy, it was the cinematographers themselves who are members of the Academy who failed to recognize its uniqueness. When experts in the field didn't think it worthy, maybe it was far ahead of its time. (And, let's face it; the film was WAY ahead of its time. The public didn't embrace it either at first.)

We're way off topic, BTW

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Agreed. Unless...Doug wants to argue that he thinks the cinematography of The Last Emperor is overrated and, thusly, it's okay to fool with the image.

I'm failing to see how the relevancy of the Oscars has anything to do with the topic at hand--the home presentation of TLE on Blu-ray.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Having worked in the industry for years, I know how categories and the awards are chosen. Being a member of the Academy's cinematography branch may or may not make you an expert. I have known a few who have no business being there.

As I said there is far to much politics involved in the Academy for it to be taken seriously or given much merit.

And yes we are way off topic, sorry didn't mean to lead astray.

Doug

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

The relevancy of the Oscars is the fact that it won an Oscar was being thrown about as proof of the greatness of the photography. I was simply suggesting that winning an Oscar for best cinematography isn't necessarily proof of such a thing.

Again I wasn't suggesting that Blade Runner should have won over Gandhi, I'm saying its shameful that it wasn't even nominated.

I'm also not suggesting that TLE didn't deserve to win. Vittorio Storaro is one of my heroes and everything I've seen of his is nothing less than stunning. It is one reason why this situation is so frustrating. Sadly I can't support these titles by buying them.

Doug

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

I'll take my share of the blame for sending this off-topic by playing devil's advocate and attempting to get inside Storaro's head.


What was I on/thinking?

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Yeah I wouldn't go in there. Its dark and spooky and there are cobwebs everywhere!

Doug

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

You "fail to see" how any example that differs from your view has any relevancy to "the topic at hand". I bring up another very popular film that was praised for its cinematography and also was reframed for DVD by its maker with nary a peep of protest being expressed, and you're "not sure... how a discussion of that film is pertinent here". Doug questions the judgment of the Academy, and it "has no relevance" according to you. These are all pertinent issues that deserve to be discussed here, rather than being dismissed because some of the opinions being expressed don't jive 100% with yours.

Vincent

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Although it should have

And yes, it is shameful that it wasn't even nominated, let alone that it didn't win.

Vincent

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

It would have been my choice as well. Though Gandhi is surely worthy and I can't say that it shouldn't have won. Or to put it another way, I felt Blade Runner deserved the Oscar that year, but the fact that Gandhi won didn't bother me.

Doug

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Vincent: That's unfair ...and incorrect.

If you have a problem that Se7en has been altered for home viewing by it's director, you should be upset by that and you should do what you can to let people know about it and maybe try to have some influence on the situation. That is why I suggested you should start a thread on the subject since one doesn't seem to exist on the HTF. Discussing it here severely limits your audience when trying to raise awareness on the issue.

I've never seen Se7en (although it sits on my shelf...waiting patiently) but, if what you say is so...and this was a favorite film of mine...I'd certainly be doing what I can to try and understand why the director is doing what he's doing and, again, raise awareness to those fans who may be unaware.

Based on what you wrote about Se7en, it seems to be as if your thoughts actually jibe with mine on this issue.

But if your point was to come to a thread on The Last Emperor and say that it's a false discussion because there was no similar outcry against Se7en...I do think it's out of place:


It is NOT only wrong when Vittorio Storaro does it...but we are only talking about Storaro in this thread (and, in particular, TLE). I contend it would be wrong when ANY director alters the image for home viewing (from the theatrical presentation) and I support anyone to try and convince me (and anyone else who is interested) why Storaro thinks it is the right thing to do.

And that's what I encourage you to do about Se7en. And if you think that means I'm trying to "dismiss you," you are in error. By taking up the cudgels of your own example, you would serve to educate me and many others who are ignorant on the topic.

There haven't been too many discussions like this since "Full Frame only" releases have pretty much gone the way of DIVX. When they DO pop up from time-to-time I think there is an added importance placed upon them and trying to understand the motivations of those responsible.

========================

Doug: It seems we also agree on not being able to support Criterion's release of TLE because of the Storaro decision.

I understand your point about the overall import of an Academy Award--the first one that comes to my mind of Gump over Shawshank in '94. But, to me it only makes sense to bring it up if you have some issues with the cinematography and are trying to say you don't think it should have won the award. And that's all I was trying to say.

I think we all agree the cinematography is gorgeous and deserving of the award...leading to our concern about it being altered.

I guess the Oscar win is just an easy crutch and one that makes for a compelling argument among those who don't have such an insider's view as you. "For gosh sakes, Bob...the damn film won the Oscar for cinematography and none other than the the DP himself wants to cut it up for home viewing!"

============================

Stephen: Really, for me, this whole exercise (and the parallel thread about the Criterion SD release) has been to try and crawl inside Storaro's thread and figure out what he's possibly thinking.

I've read Storaro's paper on Univision along with the Wiki entry and some other easily accessible info (on-line interviews, etc.) If anyone could point me towards anything further , I'd love to know about it!

The biggest issue I have in this whole situation is that Storaro has forgotten more about filmmaking than I ever will know about the subject...yet somehow I still feel like I'm right on this issue. That is disorienting to me.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

2.35:1 will be the OAR of this film for me. Storaro can have one hour lecture of "Univision", Vincent of "reframing the Seven" and Douglas of "I dislike the Academy".

2.35:1 still is the OAR for me.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

I never said I disliked the Academy. That would be like saying I disliked Cotton Candy. I love Cotton Candy, but it has little to no nutritional value and I wouldn't want to have to rely on it it stay alive.

Doug

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Fair enough.