The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

I have said this earlier and I'll say it again; Somebody should stop Vittorio Storaro for cropping "his" films, plain and simple. I *highly respect* the man as an artist/cinematographer, but he can´t just "change" the ORIGINAL aspect ratio after several years, just like that. He already did that with "Apocalypse Now" and now with "The Last Emperor" (I´m quite sure the same version will be released in BD). What´s next?

It´s quite clear, that Storaro is now obsessed with his "Univisium - 2.00:1" aspect ratio (e.g. Univisium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) and he can obviously use that ratio in his NEW films. But, he has no right to "reframe" older films that have always been 2.35:1. "DoP", "cinematographer", "artist", whatever. He still hasn´t got the right to do that.

Further more, I don´t see where´s the problem in the first place? Most people have 1.78:1 TV-sets at home and they´ve got used to those "black bars" (2.35:1/2.40:1 films and also 4:3 films). What´s the big deal? Storaro should wake up and smell the coffee. There´s no "aspect ratio problem". When there´s no problem, no need for any "solutions" either.. At least "cropping" is not the answer for crying out loud..

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Criterion takes great pains to make sure we know this is a "Director Approved Blu-ray Edition." Same with the 4-disc SD release.


And who exactly does he think he is to decide that the world needs a standard such as this anyway? Should all paintings hung in one's home use the same height-width ratio in their canvas?

I guess the electronics industry didn't get the memo about consulting Storaro during the development of high-def technology.

Loopy. I like that word.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

This is directly from the Criterion Blog from February:

"From the start of this project, Bertolucci has insisted that Storaro have ultimate approval of the mastering of the feature. This master was made in Rome under Storaro’s direct supervision, with Bertolucci’s approval. When we asked Storaro about the framing of the film, he unhesitatingly told us that the correct aspect ratio for The Last Emperor was 2:1, even though the film was commonly projected at 2.35:1. He told us that The Last Emperor was the first film he shot specifically for 2.0 framing, and Bertolucci backs him up. Our mission is to present each film as its makers would want it to be seen, and in this case the director and cinematographer asked that we release their film in the format they say they had always envisioned. We had quite a lot of discussion over this, and we certainly knew it would be controversial, but in the end the decision was not made by us. It was made, as it should be, by the filmmakers."

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

I´m sure, that Criterion didn´t really have a choice on this matter. If Storaro wanted 2.00:1 and Bertolucci said that Storaro has the "ultimate approval of the mastering" (2.35:1, 2:00:1, whatever Storaro wants), I guess 2:00:1 was the only way to go. Sadly, it´s still not the OAR.

Well, I won´t be getting this in full price. From the sales then..

edit:
I guess this "2.00:1"-thing for Storaro started quite early, from the Laserdisc-days (from the first WS-release of "Apocalypse Now" LD - which was cropped to 2.00:1, if you believe Wikipedia). Anyway, I remember some links where Storaro stated, that he was displeased how his 2.35:1-films looked on home video (and in 4:3 TVs back then, I assume).

So, I guess the man hated "black bars" so much, that is now willing to crop legendary films that won two Oscars for "Best Cinematography"; "Apocalypse Now" and "The Last Emperor". These films were 2.35:1 when the Academy saw these films... And the rest of the world, I might add. Too bad, that all of them were looking at the "wrong aspect ratio"...

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Criterion is not to blame ,its Storraro's ,its Apocalypse Now all over again.
Hes been is charge of transfers of all of Bertollucci's films hes work on.

And has the best record in the History of Color film ,when you think of the
way the films looked in the Theatre

Even the earlest Films he did with Bertollucci looked Fantastic in the Theatre.
How much filmakers know or care about there work beeing cropped is anyone's guess,Storaro has done such a amazing job with the way his
films looked in the Theatre,Its seems strange to me he wouldn't have
shot those films Flat,Whats the piont of using 2.35:1 Lens if in the end
hes going to Crop it,and If the film was really 2.0 like the Criterion
Statement above said ,why wasn't in the theatre that way,

Remmeber when Apocalypse Now Redux was in the Theatre it was 2.35;1(or Close) not 2.00

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Storaro must've been beside himself with guilt and displeasure when the films were in theaters that they were not being shown in his "vision" of 2:1. He was probably embarrassed beyond belief. I'm surprised he didn't mention it at the Oscar ceremonies when he picked up the awards for Best Cinematography.

It would be one thing for Storaro to try and carry out this argument that the films should be cropped for home displays...but I think it's even harder to swallow that he originally intended for them to be shown as such in theaters.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Bertollucci by all accounts is fully aware of Storaro's cropping of the images and he approved these transfers.

And it would be the camera operator looking through the camera, not Bertollucci.

Doug

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

He can and he has.

Doug

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

I don't think he said that he shot TLE for 2.0, but rather with 2.0 in mind. I assume he means that they were protecting for 2.0, much as some TV shows shot 1.33 but protected for 1.85 for theatrical reasons.

Doug

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

I agree. That's the most logical interpretations. Shooting The Last Emperor with the intention to have 70mm blow-ups meant that they were protecting for 2.2:1, so I find it reasonable that they were protecting for 2:1, at least in principle. Of course, some shots are better protected than others, but I can honestly say it didn't phase me when I watched the Criterion DVD a few months ago.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

As for the 2:35 version receiving cinematography awards (apparently for some meaning that almost defines that the 2.35:1 framing is ‘correct’), let us not forget that there is much more than aspect ratio to cinematography than the aspect ratio that influences framing.

Lighting is for many even more important, and this is normally the DP’s responsibility, as is camera movement, positioning and lens focal length.

Some of the posts in this thread read to me as though the aspect ratio (and subsequent framing) are the only considerations in cinematography. Not so.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Kind of reminds me of how so many 'reviewers' think that the only sign of a good audio track is an "aggressive surround presence", or some similar such nonsense.

Vincent

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

I'm a little confused, Lew. I would think most people here would understand the truth in your comments about all that goes into the DP's role in making a film. But the reason the AR is the main subject of discussion here is because of the change from 2.35:1 to 2:1 as TLE appears in this new release by Criterion. It has already been acknowledged that based on DVD Beaver's screen caps it seems as if the colors are much better on this new release--probably much closer to what was intended by the filmmakers.

I suppose there seems to be a certain high irony felt by fans of TLE that the film won the Oscar for cinematography and that the film's cinematographer has decided to change the image which was originally shown in the theaters.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

I don´t fully see, where people have posted, that "aspect ratio/framing are the ONLY considerations in cinematography"? I have been working as a TV-cameraman/editor for roughly 8 years and I can say, that the framing is very important (you don´t usually leave that much "room" for "reframing" etc). I´m sure it´s the same thing with cinematography (which is of course *can be* different "entity" vs. TV-work). I guess film material can be more flexible, when it comes to framing etc. Aspect ratio is important, but obviously not the only aspect.

But yes, the Criterion DVD/(most likely) also BD are framed to 2.00:1 and there´s nothing we can do about it now. We can only
a) Buy the product.
b) Not to buy the product.
I´m sure these BD-releases from Criterion will be quite expensive, so at least I´m going to wait for the sales. 35-40$ for the cropped film is a bit too much for my taste (of course, there will be great extras..).


This was my point indeed.

_____

Edit: Some specs... Extras looks great, gotta admit that.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=1670

"'The Last Emperor' (1987) features a high definition digital transfer approved by cinematographer Vittorio Storaro, and a stereo track in DTS-HD Master Audio. Extras include:

Audio commentary by director Bernardo Bertolucci, producer Jeremy Thomas, screenwriter Mark Peploe, and composer-actor Ryuichi Sakamoto
The Italian Traveler: Bernardo Bertolucci, a 53-minute film by Fernand Mozskowicz, tracing the director's geographic influences, from Parma to China
Video images taken by Bertolucci in China
The Chinese Adventure of Bernardo Bertolucci, a 52-minute documentary that revisits the film's creation
A 47-minute documentary featuring Storaro, editor Gabriella Cristiana, costume designer James Acheson, and art director Gianni Silvestri
A 66-minute documentary exploring Bertolucci's creative process and the making of The Last Emperor
A 30-minute interview with Bertolucci from 1989
A new interview with composer David Byrne
A new interview with Ian Buruma examining the historical period of the film
Theatrical trailer
Booklet featuring an essay by critic David Thomson"

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

This often depends on the era in which the film was made. In the 40s and 50s they were often very generous with the amount of "breathing room" left in the framing.

Very tight framing didn't become popular until after television came along and the makers of the programs were trying to use as much real estate of the then very small screens as possible. That style eventually made its way into movies as well, which to my way of thinking isn't particularly a good thing. This became the era of the chin to eyebrow close up. A close up in the 40s would be upper chest to somewhere above the top of the head.

Of course even after TV, very important information was always kept in the "TV Safe" area. Even theatrical films had a "title safe" area back in the 30s because they knew that some theaters were likely to cut off those titles if they drifted to close to the edges of the frame.

Frankly in 87 when TLE was made, they were probably still keeping that TV safe area in mind for that film, making sure that really important information stayed more or less with in a 4x3 area of the frame.


Doug

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

"Frankly in 87 when TLE was made, they were probably still keeping that TV safe area in mind for that film, making sure that really important information stayed more or less with in a 4x3 area of the frame"

This is pretty much only when it comes Narrative Information ,I don't think
you are saying that Bertollucci shot a film with 4X3 in Mind,I don't belive
this for a minute when it comes to visuals and I don't think a film maker
as great as Bertollucci is designing his shots for 2 formats.Sure films
are done like that,But most are pretty lame when it comes to design of
the frame.

"And it would be the camera operator looking through the camera, not Bertollucci."

I don't know what your getting at here,I don't Credit the design of the
frame in "Kane" to the camera Operator,he does what hes told,Or not even
Toland,Its Welles ,and you know its Welles from looking at all his films

If you watch the documentary on the DVD you see Bertolluci befind the
camera lining up all the shots,and in the Storrao Documentary "Writing
with Light" Betollucci says someting like "Storaro does amazing things
with light,he tales care of everything about the lights,I take care of everything in front of the Camera" well something like that,I am pretty
sure Bertollucci does a lot ,and I don't think the veiwfinder he is lookin though
is 2.0:1

as for those who say the film was 2.2 for 70mm and so 2.0 is fine because
of safe area ,are just wrong ,The Film is shot in 2.35:1 and if their a safe
area its 2.20:1 ,which is a whole lot better than what the criterion dvd is.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

1. Cropped Video
2. Stereo 2.0 Audio

TWO BIG THUMBS DOWN in my opinion. As much as love this movie there is no way I am buying a BD with 2.0 sound, of a film which was originally screened in 6.0 sound. The cropping of the video is something I may have been able to live with considering the director and cinematographer have left us with no other options, but there is absolutely no justifiable excuse for Criterion to release this with 2.0 sound.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

What makes you think that TLE has a 6.0 track? It may have had a six track 70mm Dolby Stereo track, but six track <> 6.0. 70mm tracks in 1987 typically came in two configurations: 4.1 (left, center, right, mono surround, with the two remaining tracks being used for LFE and frequently referred to as "baby booms") or 5.1 (left, center, right, stereo surround and 1 LFE track). There are some exceptions (Fantasia's 70mm rerelease in 1990), but I am reasonably certain that TLE was not one of them.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

It's DTS-HD:MA 5.1, not stereo.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Press release says: "Stereo track in DTS-HD Master Audio"... So I guess it´s "Stereo".. Or mistake?

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

OBviously there's some confusion on Criterion's part. Here's what their website says:


Or maybe the director and DP authorized a reduction in the soundtrack from 5.1 to 2.0 saying they originally intended for it to be heard in stereo...

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Mr. Storaro crops I don't buy - it is very simple actually and if everybody would do the same he might reconsider.

I feel a bit sorry for Criterion though - they probably would have preferred to release in the original theatrical aspect ratio.

Is there some kind of online petition where I can sign to prevent that this happens to Apocalypse Now ?

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Nope. Given that Paramount has very recently released a new transfer of AN, I doubt they'd go back to the well for the eventual BD release.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

One reason I "think so" is quite simply because I saw the movie when it first premiered in 70MM 6 Track sound. So whatever may have been the original configuration, mind you entirely due to the limitations of the technology available at the time, be it 4.1 or 5.1 as you have detailed, the film's audio was definately mixed for surround sound and for definately more tracks than stereo 2.0

I based my reactions on the details provided by the Press Release found commonly on the internet.


I pray that this is true for I would love to own this on BD and would have to pass on it, that is if it only has a 2.0 track, even if it is in DTS-HD Master Audio. Although, now that I think of it, there is one thing that makes this more than likely to be correct and that is, I have never known of a DTS mix on any media or theatrical print, being only in 2.0 tracks. Ofcourse I am sure technically this must be possible, but I think DTS as a company only allows the DTS codec to be used for multi-channel mixes. Does anyone recall of any such instance of a DTS mix less than atleast 4.0 channels?

Now would'nt that be funny, considering the Academy, awarded the film for 'Best Cinematography' & 'Best Sound', entirely based on a presentation of the film in an aspect ratio and a sound mix that the director never intended. Maybe the Academy should have the awards cancelled and then review the film afresh with 2:1 picture and 2.0 sound. I wonder what stance, Jeremy Thomas - Producer, Bernardo Bertolucci - Director, Vittorio Storaro - Cinematographer, Bill Rowe & Ivan Sharrockwould - Sound Engineers, would take, if it were to come to that.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

Woody Allen's films, when released in dts, have been mono.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

You got me there. Maybe I should have restricted myself to non theatrical release formats. Thus, the question now stands, can you think of any non theatrical format release, which has a DTS mix of less than 4.0 tracks?

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

[quote=Peter Neski]
Of course I don't mean that they litterally were framing for 1.33. I mean that they would likely often keep very important information with in an area that could be seen on a TV screen. OF course its not always possible do to.


There is a big difference between lining up the shots and acutally operating the camera. Some directors are more involved with the actual shot selection than others. I'm sure that Bertolluci is very involved but probably not to the extent that say Ridley Scott is who often works as his own operator.


Agreed. 2.2 isn't TOO far off from 2.35.

2.0 is another story.

Doug

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

This is too bad, they really should include both versions so the original theatrical presentation is an option, especially if they're not including the TV cut.

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

This would clearly be the best option in my opinion.

Doug

Re: The Last Emperor on Blu-ray

More money saved I guess. As has been pointed out it would be possible to add an original theatrical aspect ratio version as a bonus to those movies that Storaro now wants to have a 2.0 AR. But there is obviously no place for that in Mr. Storaro's little universe that is very much about every movie having the same shape