2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Hmmm, the Continent winning the most Golden Medals by far, seems to be Europe.

We're upcoming, guys!


Cees

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Granted. But countries with real seasons, particularly northern countries like Canada, Norway, etc., have a much smaller season in which to train for the summer games than the equatorial countries do. They can still field a team, but mostly they aren't very competitive. The equatorial countries could field a winter team too, if they felt it was worth the money to be uncompetitive.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Yes, unfunny, wasn't it?

I just love the way folks go on about synchronised swimming, table tennis, badminton et al as if they aren't 'proper' sports. I agree totally that ping pong and gentle games of badminton on a summer's day on a lawn aren't exactly taxing sports (though they're fun). However, if you think badminton or table tennis at a serious level are easy, then I have just one thing to say - get yourself fit enough to play them at a decent level and then see how 'easy' they are (that is, assuming that on top of simple physical fitness you've got the skill and finesse to play them well). I don't want to start a 'which sport is the toughest' macho BS debate here, but believe me, at top level, these sports are tough (and yes, before anyone says it, so are a lot of other sports). And if they look easy when watched from the comfort of an armchair, that's because the competitors are so skilled and fit they make it look easy.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

With Britain leading the way and France trailing a long way behind. Yes, I can live with that concept.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Further, I seriously doubt anyone could find playing ping pong and badminton against the Olympic athletes easy. Maybe only for those who didn't bother to watch the games. Yep, that must be it.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Who besides the Juggies from The Man Show can seriously compete in trampoline?

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Bucky's rant continued on Monday, if anyone here with a sense of humo(u)r would like to read along:

Get Fuzzy

Get Fuzzy

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

I still prefer Dilbert and Chickweed Lane

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

All subjectively scored "sports" should be thrown out. If the winner of an event can't be determined by a timer or other concrete measurement then it shouldn't be an Olympic event.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Off track kinda but "Get Fuzzy" is the greatest comic ever.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

To be rigorously fair, this would have to mean ANY sport where human judgement plays a part. You can't just cherry pick the ones you want removed! Let's see, at a conservative estimate, you would have to remove the following:

(1) synchro swimming
(2) boxing
(3) weightlifting
(4) baseball [relies on referee's subjective judgement]
(5) football [ditto]
(6) hockey [ditto]
(7) handball [ditto]
(8) volleyball [ditto]
(9) basketball [ditto]
(10) wrestling
(11) judo
(12) taekwondo
(13) discus [it's up to the referee to judge where the discus landed]
(14) javelin [it's up to the referee to judge where the javelin landed]
(15) hammer [it's up to the referee to judge where the hammer landed]
(16) shot [it's up to the referee to judge where the shot landed]
(17) dressage
(18) badminton [the referee decides if a shot is in or out]
(19) tennis [ditto]
(20) water polo

Congratulations, at a stroke you'd remove several of the most ancient of sporting activities, many of the crowd-pleasers, and deny over half of any Olympic squad the chance to compete.

There is a counterargument to this, which is that 'I didn't mean that, I just meant the sports that are heavily reliant on subjective judgement'. But who decides what is 'heavily reliant'? Oh wait - that would be a subjective judgement, wouldn't it?

If I could be Olympic dictator, there are several things I'd change:

(1) ban taekwondo until the standard of refereeing dramatically improves
(2) ensure that boxing judges are chosen randomly from a panel literally seconds before a fight
(3) at least halve the number of swimming events - there are way too many very similar distances
(4) in any relay race, the same team members must compete in every round [the current system is grossly unfair to smaller nations].
(5) in competing for individual all-round, group, and individual apparatus medals, gymnasts must offer a significantly different routine for each one

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Your list omits diving, gymnastics and rhythmic gymnastics. Also the decathlon and pentathlon include discus, javelin, etc.

Not to mention badmitten and soccer

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Ban them as well ...

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

There is a difference between refereeing and judging, but the distinction seems to be lost with you two.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Ahem ...

What constitutes judging and what constitutes refereeing are part of a continuous variable, not an absolute difference which is what you are erroneously supposing.

I presume that you can accept that refereeing a match or a throwing event involves subjective judgement? If so, then like it or not there is an element of subjectivity in the outcome of that event. And goodness knows, any sports fan can think of football matches that have been won or lost on bad refereeing decisions. But nobody is claiming that these events, based on subjective decisions, invalidate the sport in question. In judging, the subjective decision creates the score, in refereeing, the subjective decision-making process decides if the score is valid and also can affect the flow of the game and whether one side receives partisan treatment. Neither is immune from subjective judgement, and accordingly the distinction you make between judging and refereeing is a false one.

What you are then left with is a much weakened version of your initial argument in which you want to decide where the line should be drawn between sports that in your opinion are too subjectively judged/refereed and those that have (in your eyes) an acceptable level of subjectivity. But as I pointed out in the original post, the only way you can decide the demarcation line is on subjective criteria. And that means that you are basing a decision using the same cognitive processes that you found fault with in the first place!

In other words, you've painted yourself into a corner.


Incidentally, even in the supposedly very subjectively judged sports, things are far more objective than I think you realise. Basically, judging involves calculating whether a competitor matches pre-set criteria. It isn't and never has been a purely subjective judgement. So for example, in gymnastics or ice skating, the competitor is judged on whether they correctly execute a particular movement in the prescribed manner. And to allow for individual bias, an aggregate of several judges' marks is taken. It's worth noting that the inter-judge variability is generally low, indicating that this 'subjectivity' comes up with pretty uniform results.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Excellent analysis Andrew, I agree with you completely. As I have argued before, there is sometimes more bias in an umpire's calls of balls/strikes than the judging of artistry in figure skating, and certainly more inconsistencies. Anyone who watches a rookie get squeezed at the plate or a veteran hitter get the benefit of the call knows that.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Jenn Stuczynski, Silver in pole vault, trained in a barn in her coach's back yard, financed by his second mortgages. I guess it depends on what you mean by "top athlete", but there are still some elite atheletes who are non-financed, small timers.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Don't forget what happened in the Gold medal Basketball game between the USA and USSR in the 1972 Olympics. This is a case where a referee used his subjectivity to change the outcome of a contest. The point really is that "subjective" events are not going to be eliminated from the Olympics.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Hey, I was just telling him he left some sports that met his criteria off his list. I didn't say that I agreed with him - didn't say that I didn't either!

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

This is certainly true for a lot of the less 'glamorous' sports. E.g. some neighbours of my parents have a daughter who was an Olympic prospect in the walking event and she could attract zilch funding because it wasn't 'exciting' in the way that e.g. running events are. In the end I believe she gave up because there was no way she could get in the training needed to reach the absolute top and earn even a subsistence wage to sustain her. In another example, my father-in-law was for several years in the British senior men's triathlon team. He had to pay for every bit of his travel and all his kit (including the humblest team T shirt). Now my father in law isn't short of a bob or two as we say in the UK, and he had the leisure time and means to put in the training, but anyone on even an average income would have been deterred. And that's at the relatively 'relaxed' end of international sports.

Incidentally, said f-in-l once showed me the list of banned substances. I naively thought it was just steroids and similar, but there was a ton of everyday medicines that you or I wouldn't think twice about taking (e.g. various cough medicines) that they were banned from taking. Getting treatment for even the simplest ailment was a nightmare.